Selling Action to the WSOP

So now that I actually won my seat to the WSOP ME, I'm going to look again to sell a % of myself this year. I did the same thing last year, but they were all for smaller Venetian/Caesar's Palace events in which I cashed in a couple, but wasn't enough to generate any positive ROI for those tournaments (thank God for cash games). In any case, I'm looking to do the game again this year...but since I don't really know my schedule yet, I'm only going to sell % of myself in the ME (if you really want to, I can throw a tentative schedule for other events that I'll play in).

I'm looking to sell maybe 50% of myself in total, and right now I have a couple of guys who have already said they were interested but as of writing, all 50% is still available.

Looking to sell it at a 1.1 : 1 ratio ($110 USD for 1%), where as you have guys on 2p2 selling them at 1.3+ with just semi-decent results. By no means do I think I'm better than them comparing (heck, my results is pretty much a tad above break even if you take out my $12K package win), but I definitely think that I have a positive ROI playing in the ME given the nature and skill levels of majority of the players that will be playing. Right now, my bankroll definitely cannot afford for me to have 100% of myself (as much as I want to), but I am also not going to miss the world's softest $10K buyin event with a shot for millions of dollars + potential sponsorship deals that might come along with it.

So if anyone is interested, please shoot me a PM, or e-mail me at westside8 [at] gmail [dot] com. Feel free to post any questions or what not on here.
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Comments

  • great idea actually; ME is really -ev and since you can't sell the package, might as well spread the risk. better to take the funds and buy-in to some smaller tournaments with decent structure while you are in Vegas or pad the future bankroll. Good luck in any case.
  • pokerJAH wrote: »
    great idea actually; ME is really -ev and since you can't sell the package, might as well spread the risk. better to take the funds and buy-in to some smaller tournaments with decent structure while you are in Vegas or pad the future bankroll. Good luck in any case.

    ME is actually a very +ev tournament for anyone with half a clue about tournament play. There are so many clueless players there that any decent player will certainly have a decent ROI in the event. The only problem is that due to the size of the tournament, the variance is also enormous, thus leading to the need to sell action to lower the variance.

    I mean technically I could just take the money and not play, but that is IMO pretty stupid because you can't really find another tournament this soft and the potential for not only immediate return, but future returns being very high.

    Now to answer a couple of questions I have been asked:

    1. Will you consider selling smaller than 1%?

    I would, even though I do prefer to sell it in chunks of 1%, we will see how many I manage to sell/swap before I will make a decision.

    2. Will there be a contract signed?

    Yes, while I know most people on the forum here knows me, this is just to protect both parties in case I luckbox my way and make a significant score.

    3. Does this include any bonuses/sponsorship money I will receive?

    No, any action bought will strictly be for the amount of money I cash from the tournament. Bonuses/sponsorship money that I could potentially receive will not be part of this deal.

    4. How will you accept money if I buy a piece from you?

    PokerStars/Full Tilt is preferred, but I will accept Canadian dollar if you see me in person. I am going to be looking at $120* CDN per 1% accounting for the 1.1:1 ratio + the current exchange rate.

    *this also could be changed depending on the fluctuation of our Canadian currency against the US Dollar
  • westside8 wrote: »
    ME is actually a very +ev tournament for anyone with half a clue about tournament play.

    too much luck factor in a tournament with such a large field, IMO. I hope you well in any case.
  • Congrats. That's awesome. gl

    One question - what about withholding tax? I've never played poker in the US, but as I understand it, the IRS will immediately take 30% withholding tax off of any significant win. This tax can be refunded to you (in part or whole) at a later date if you have documented (legal) US gambling losses to offset the winnings in the same tax year.

    So if you win $10 Million - it's essentially 30% off all of it.

    However, if you end up min cashing in the ME and don't cash in any other WSOP event you enter, your taxable amount will vary significantly - more so if you have or will be doing any other gambling in the US in 2009.

    Did you have an idea of how you will handle this? Would you pay out immediately strictly based on the winnings you brought back to Canada and then another small payout later after getting a refund (if you do get a refund)?
  • Yep...I have talked to a few people and it is commonly agreed upon that "investors" will be paid based on winnings prior to the withholding tax is taken.
  • pokerJAH wrote: »
    too much luck factor in a tournament with such a large field, IMO. I hope you well in any case.

    I think you're terribly mistaken to the meaning of having a +ev in a tourney
  • westside8 wrote: »
    I think you're terribly mistaken to the meaning of having a +ev in a tourney

    No matter what the skill level of the field is, it is pretty tough to make the money. One bad beat to the wrong donkey and you're out. I think he means that your chance of getting your investment back is pretty slim.
    pokerJAH wrote: »
    better to take the funds and buy-in to some smaller tournaments with decent structure while you are in Vegas or pad the future bankroll. Good luck in any case.

    Jim, it's the WSOP ME! You gotta take a stab at the Bracelet man!
  • JohnnieH wrote: »
    No matter what the skill level of the field is, it is pretty tough to make the money. One bad beat to the wrong donkey and you're out. I think he means that your chance of getting your investment back is pretty slim.

    I don't disagree, I actually agree with him - hence why I'm selling to lower variance. But the fact remains, statistically, any decent player should have a +roi (and thus +ev) in this tournament given the skills of most of the participants.
  • westside8 wrote: »
    I have talked to a few people and it is commonly agreed upon that "investors" will be paid based on winnings prior to the withholding tax is taken.
    Seriously? If you sell 50% and win the $10 million first prize, your investors will get $5 million and you get to take home only $2 million?? I know that I will never recover most of that $3 million withheld tax. My arrangement with people that requested to buy a piece of me was net of any taxes and tips.
    westside8 wrote: »
    I think you're terribly mistaken to the meaning of having a +ev in a tourney
    Agreed. For those who are not affected by the 30% tax/rake, the WSOP Main Event is the most +EV tournament so the US pros make sure they play it every single year in their lifetime.
  • BlondeFish wrote: »
    Seriously? If you sell 50% and win the $10 million first prize, your investors will get $5 million and you get to take home only $2 million?? My arrangement with people that requested to buy a piece of me was net of any taxes and tips.

    That was what I gathered from talking to guys like Watts. Looks like you were able to get an awesome deal from your buyers.
  • Yes, I think it's different for Canadian professionals, since they can deduct the 30% withheld tax and many other expenditures from their poker income. I no longer work for a CA firm, but I think the 30% tax (~U$930K) would have been deductible last year for 5th place Scott Montgomery the pro, but amateur Darus Suharto was probably screwed 30% of his winnings (~U$725K).
    westside8 wrote: »
    That was what I gathered from talking to guys like Watts.
  • BlondeFish wrote: »
    Yes, I think it's different for Canadian professionals, since they can deduct the 30% withheld tax and many other expenditures from their poker income. I no longer work for a CA firm, but I think the 30% tax (~U$930K) would have been deductible last year for 5th place Scott Montgomery the pro, but amateur Darus Suharto was probably screwed 30% of his winnings (~U$725K).

    You are right...that's how I'm gonna do it. Just spoke with someone who has a CA and they said it is far better for me to give the money post-withholding given my status as a non-pro.
  • BlondeFish wrote: »
    Yes, I think it's different for Canadian professionals, since they can deduct the 30% withheld tax and many other expenditures from their poker income. I no longer work for a CA firm, but I think the 30% tax (~U$930K) would have been deductible last year for 5th place Scott Montgomery the pro, but amateur Darus Suharto was probably screwed 30% of his winnings (~U$725K).
    Keep in mind that even though Scott may be a pro, he still would have the withholding just like any other Canadian (because of the non tax treaty status). I think the difference is that he can offset the 30% with actual travel/hotel costs as well as losses incurred while we mere mortals can only use losses. Make sense... Now the thing is you really don't want losses do you? lol. Better to just keep winning and paying the 30% just like any other job.
  • If you play a lot online, you could always try to make the case that you really are a pro who supplements their income from real world work... whatever classification gets you to pay the least taxes..
  • JohnnieH wrote: »
    No matter what the skill level of the field is, it is pretty tough to make the money. One bad beat to the wrong donkey and you're out. Jim, it's the WSOP ME! You gotta take a stab at the Bracelet man!

    That's my point basically. With so many players, its really hard to make it to the money. Your job is to prove me wrong :)

    I would never play the ME if I could sell the satellite. I don't need the money but I would rather use it towards other lower buy-in tournaments with similar structures. More bang for the poker buck! but that's just me. Although I do plan to play the ME down the road when the mortgage is paid off.
  • Congrats Wes. Please luckbox a win and follow it up with pics of you snorting blow off a hookers tittay
  • cadillac wrote: »
    Congrats Wes. Please luckbox a win and follow it up with pics of you snorting blow off a hookers tittay
    Wes & luckbox? Should never be used in the same sentence.. :) He's as solid as they come :) In any case, just outplay em Wes, I've seen you do it!
  • Btw..if anyone is planning to come down during that time, I will probably have an extra bed in my room either at the Palms, or take the money from the hotel and stay elsewhere.

    So let me know if you're interested.
  • pokerJAH wrote: »
    ME is really -ev

    more genius
  • GTA Poker wrote: »
    more genius

    welcome back, we have missed your nuggets of poker wisdom.

    Well, with your generous 2/5 bankroll, and the ME being such a +EV event, I surprised you are not playing it year after year. Do tell?
  • BBC Z wrote: »
    If you play a lot online, you could always try to make the case that you really are a pro who supplements their income from real world work... whatever classification gets you to pay the least taxes..

    Then you would need to pay tax on your online winnings as well if you report it.
    westside8 wrote: »
    So now that I actually won my seat to the WSOP ME, I'm going to look again to sell a % of myself this year.

    Do you accept casino bucks? How much will $1 US get me? We can work out the details over pm.

    Congrats on winning the seat.
  • pokerJAH wrote: »
    welcome back, we have missed your nuggets of poker wisdom.

    Well, with your generous 2/5 bankroll, and the ME being such a +EV event, I surprised you are not playing it year after year. Do tell?

    Thanks.

    I don't play mtts.
  • 34% sold...
  • westside8 wrote: »
    Btw..if anyone is planning to come down during that time, I will probably have an extra bed in my room either at the Palms, or take the money from the hotel and stay elsewhere.

    So let me know if you're interested.

    Booked Bellagio for 5 nights. July 2nd - 7th...got an extra bed if anyone is interested. Otherwise I'm just going to get a king instead of 2 queens
  • Does this mean that you're passing up on signing PokerStars' contract, free room at The Palms, and all the other bonuses? I'll probably be by myself too at a Monte Carlo suite, but I'm not yet sure when I'll be arriving.
    westside8 wrote: »
    Booked Bellagio for 5 nights. July 2nd - 7th
  • gl wes... ship it one time!
  • BlondeFish wrote: »
    Does this mean that you're passing up on signing PokerStars' contract, free room at The Palms, and all the other bonuses? I'll probably be by myself too at a Monte Carlo suite, but I'm not yet sure when I'll be arriving.

    Unsure about the contract (but leaning towards not signing at this moment at least), but I'm taking the $1K instead of the room at the Palms.
  • Why are you thinking about not signing? Don't u get upgraded to supernova instatly?
  • actyper wrote: »
    Why are you thinking about not signing? Don't u get upgraded to supernova instatly?

    I get up to Supernova and the invites to the party/players package, but I don't get any options IF I make it deep, or even the option of taking money to wear patches if I make it to a TV table. Especially this year where ESPN will cover ALOT of the main event, it might be more beneficial for me to wait and see how I do in that regards. My volume on Stars isn't high enough where I will be able to use the VPP and make SNE or something.
  • What is a good way of handling the currency conversion for the investors who wants to pay in Canadian dollars instead of US dollars? The exchange rate is so volatile that the Canadian dollars given today for each 1% may be worth far less than U$110 by the time you leave/play/cash at the WSOP.
    westside8 wrote: »
    34% sold...
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