A spot I hate (5$ DoN)

Quinner

Ok let me present this to the jury. I hate everything about this spot, I hate calling, because unless I hit a perfect AJx or something better I pretty much have to fold to any action even if an Ace hits the board. I hate re-raising because of precisely what happens in this hand. But I hate folding because I see often enough that the hand is either a small pocket pair or AJ/A10. Of course it is also occasionally AK/AQ. To what frequency of each I have no idea. The bet size is a bit weird. I usually don't see a raise of 4xBB on the button unless it's a weakerish hand hoping to squeeze out some fold equity.

PokerStars Game #28348054890: Tournament #164771018, $5.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2009/05/18 16:40:20 ET
Table '164771018 1' 10-max Seat #10 is the button
Seat 2: Gizzmmoo (2630 in chips)
Seat 4: Quinner777 (2120 in chips)
Seat 5: mssoftware (3200 in chips)
Seat 6: maettzen (2145 in chips)
Seat 8: lo.bud.fish (700 in chips)
Seat 9: spielmaus2 (2090 in chips)
Seat 10: gold ace 18 (2115 in chips)
Gizzmmoo: posts the ante 10
Quinner777: posts the ante 10
mssoftware: posts the ante 10
maettzen: posts the ante 10
lo.bud.fish: posts the ante 10
spielmaus2: posts the ante 10
gold ace 18: posts the ante 10
Gizzmmoo: posts small blind 50
Quinner777: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Quinner777 [Js Ad]
mssoftware: folds
maettzen: folds
lo.bud.fish: folds
spielmaus2: folds
gold ace 18: raises 300 to 400
Gizzmmoo: folds
Quinner777: raises 1710 to 2110 and is all-in
gold ace 18: calls 1705 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (5) returned to Quinner777
*** FLOP *** [6h Tc 9c]
*** TURN *** [6h Tc 9c] [5s]
*** RIVER *** [6h Tc 9c 5s] [3d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Quinner777: shows [Js Ad] (high card Ace)
gold ace 18: shows [Qs Ah] (high card Ace - Queen kicker)
gold ace 18 collected 4330 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4330 | Rake 0
Board [6h Tc 9c 5s 3d]
Seat 2: Gizzmmoo (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Quinner777 (big blind) showed [Js Ad] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 5: mssoftware folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: maettzen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: lo.bud.fish folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: spielmaus2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: gold ace 18 (button) showed [Qs Ah] and won (4330) with high card Ace

I have two conclusions on how to play this hand in the future. A) just fold and wait for a better spot. b) call, if the flop comes low bet out big on the flop and hope he believes me lol.

Thoughts?

Note: If he makes it 3xBB I just call and see a flop, is that weird/ok? Or should I just be mainly folding this hand almost always in this situation? Unless I have a reason to suspect villain is raising light?

DrTyore

Tough spot..

Of course, the always helpful "it depends" comes into play. Is this player showing down only premium hands? Or is he raising often enough for you to consider that he's stealing. Is he tight enough that he'll fold something like AQ / JJ? Is he so loose that you may be getting in ahead, but only like 55/45?

If you're not sure, I definitely lean towards folding...

Mark

wildbill7145

I'd like to declare a mistrial. I think it was a bit early for all in Quinner. It just wasn't necessary at this point. You've got a decent stack, so why shove preflop? Blinds certainly aren't killing you this early on either. I'm certainly no wizard of analysis, but that was what jumped out at me when I looked at the hand. Anyhoo, just my thoughts. Take 'em for what their worth.

BiiLLY

Definitely depends on what you think his range is. Unless you think hes stealing, I dont think you should be repopping all-in if you suspect hes got a hand, because hes beating you with AK/AQ AA-JJ and your at a coinflip versus any other PP. I dont think calling is a good play because if you are giving him credit for a hand and you hit your ace, you gotta decide again what he has, AK/AQ is ahead, and if you dont hit then you pretty m uch have to fold to aggression.

I would probably fold if I think he has something, or re-raise him if I think he is stealing and see where he is at.

JohnnieH

At best you're racing here. Sure if you win the hand, your ITM, but it's a pretty big gamble.

This early you should have just called and used your position after the flop.

Graham

I don't like risking your stack with AJ. You could have called and tried to outplay post flop, but preflop I think AJ isnt worthy of shoving.

moose

If this is a regular tournament probably a stop and go is the best play. Since this is a DoN, fold. You don't need the chips to win, you need one person out of 6 to make a mistake (I'm already assuming the guy with 700 chips is DOA). At the $5 level, it's going to happen.

DennisG

I call-check-fold (if I miss) If an ace or J hits...well...we shove....or just fold pre. It is only AJo. What are you really ahead of? 4xbb in late position is pretty standard (playing by the green book). Again.."it depends"...reads and history are paramount.

oooohh,...wait...I know what DoN means now...lol.yeah..just fold it. you have lots of chips..others are much more impatient and will make mistakes..

Quinner

I have to wonder if there's anyone on this forum that didn't go DoN? What in God's name is that?? I know I did, and then the lightbulb goes off and your like shit! yea.... NOW it makes sense lol. Double or Nothing's are pretty good to me. I play tight tight tight and smart (paying attention to stack sizes is absolutely crucial) and I am literally a consitent 8/10 winner at the 1 dollar level.

Hilariously enough do the math...here I'll do it for you.

8x2$ (for win) - 10*1.15 (entry fee + rake) = 4.50$ Profit.

Factor in the fact that I sometimes win only 7 and sometimes only 6 . I make on average somewhere in the vicinity of 3 dollars every 2-3 hours I put in (I'm 5 tabling at the moment maybe should try for more). Nice thing about multi-tabling DoN's is that you can just stick to a good starting hand chart for the most part and it makes multi-tabling really easy.

Still break even at the 5 dollar level, but small sample size so could be variance. Anyway thanx for the responses. Take it easy.

ReefAquarium

There is a gun in the middle of the room of ten people.
They will open the door when 5 people are left.

One guy picks up the gun, points it at his head and bang...
Another guy picks up the gun, points it at his head and bang...
Another guy picks up the gun, points it at his head and bang...



Do you pick up the gun?

blackmagicz

With your stack I am not calling with AJ, I am opening with it and thats about it. Remember its up to 5 other players to make mistakes, you don't need to finish first.

Just steal steal steal when it is folded to you....

Voodoo

I fold here but also you should be looking at utililizing your time bank as much as possible to get those blinds moving. With that short stack (700) as the only thing between you and cashing you want him panicing and pushing with an inferior hand.

moose

There is 7 left so it's not the only thing...

actyper

Just curious why most of you don't like this resteal here?

Button raiser has a huge range here

The guy with 700 chips is not completely out of it. Players often go a lot lower in these dons, and when it gets to 6 or 7 left, stealing is pretty easy.

The only reason I do fold here is because a 4x raise in lp is generally a stronger hand from my experiences, but if this guy is a regular 4x raiser then it wouldn't mean anything.

DrTyore

actyper wrote: »

Button raiser has a huge range here

And how do you know this?

Just because it's the button doing the raising? Pffffffffffffffffffffft

Mark

Voodoo

moose wrote: »

There is 7 left so it's not the only thing...

Obviously I have a problem with counting.

actyper

DrTyore wrote: »

And how do you know this?

Just because it's the button doing the raising? Pffffffffffffffffffffft

Mark

see blackmagicz post

Quinner

Mark's right here though. I used to typically think that, but just because they are on the button doesn't mean their range is particularly wide. In fact I've tightened up mine a bit although I do loosen it up if the blinds are easy folds. Maybe the 4xBB was meant to convey a tight range who knows. At any rate learn that mistake the hard way if you must, but there is a time and a place to resteal with AJo but this wasn't it. It was my fault for misinterpreting his unusual raise, and oddly enough I usually don't mess around with other big stacks in DoN's, I must have been on the drugs.

moose

He doesn't need to resteal here because he doesn't need the chips to win the tourney. Give him 1000-1800 chips instead of being mid-stacked and now a move here may be necessary.

actyper

True but setting up your image and protecting your BB here is pretty huge. You don't want guys to start picking on you, and with this blind protection see how many walks you get in the future.

JohnnieH

actyper wrote: »

True but setting up your image and protecting your BB here is pretty huge. You don't want guys to start picking on you, and with this blind protection see how many walks you get in the future.

Quinner wrote: »

Seat 4: Quinner777 (2120 in chips)
Seat 10: gold ace 18 (2115 in chips)

Pretty tough to set a table image when you're left with 5 chips.

moose

actyper wrote: »

True but setting up your image and protecting your BB here is pretty huge. You don't want guys to start picking on you, and with this blind protection see how many walks you get in the future.

Blinds are 50/100 and other than the short stack, the other 6 players have similar stacks. He has no need to defend anything. A reraise commits half his stack and essentially pot commits him on the flop. This isn't the early or even mid stages of a regular sng, this is the end of a DoN and he has good enough chip position that defending his blind is stupid. He doesn't need to win the sng he simply has to wait out the other players until someone makes a mistake. Defending here is one of those mistakes. If he folds he has plenty of opportunity to steal someone else's blind.

actyper

I'm not talking about simply raising here, i'm commenting on OP's shove. With this shove, its puts the mistake back in the original raiser's hand. Call off here with AQ with 17bbs?

Just giving another point of view here. Anybody work some icm magic on here?

From the responses i've read so far, the options seem to favour calling which I find to be the worst option, and folding which seems rather weak.

DennisG

I don't really see how ICM can factor in here...Maybe I am wrong..We aren't trying to get all the chips....just keep ours.

AJ just isn't that good here with the structure in my thoughts..would I also fold AA? lol..no.

DrTyore

I agree with actyper saying that calling is the worst option here

I hate a re-push or re-raise

I likey foldy.

It's a DON, a different animal.. so what if that dude wants your blinds every time? You can take seat 6 and 8's! There's 7 players left, and you're in 4th place overall... Don't tangle with them all pre-flop!!

Mark

moose

I don't disagree that the resteal can be a good move if villian has been open raising a lot. However at this level there are lots of mistakes, and calling off your 17bb stack with AQ is another. Since it is obvious that players at this level make these kind of mistakes often is exactly why he should fold. Let someone else make the mistake and cripple themselves. It will happen more often than not, getting our hero ITM. There is easier chips to be had than assuming the original raiser a) is raising with a weaker hand than AJ or b) is capable of folding a better hand.