Flat or Shove

Wetts1012Wetts1012
in No Limit / Pot Limit Holdem
Bazillion tabling so no reads.

What you do?

Full Tilt Poker Game #11996514421: Big Double - B (89724925), Table 10 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:31:10 ET - 2009/05/02
Seat 1: Cosey (3,100)
Seat 2: Wetts1012 (6,300)
Seat 3: FatherTimToo (2,355)
Seat 4: roddman67 (5,375)
Seat 5: I Am Naked (8,200)
Seat 6: MkUiSlTl (3,990)
Seat 7: PhilPhan99 (1,610)
Seat 8: sharkn (11,370)
Cosey posts the small blind of 50
Wetts1012 posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Wetts1012 [2s 2h]
FatherTimToo folds
roddman67 has 15 seconds left to act
roddman67 raises to 270
I Am Naked folds
MkUiSlTl folds
PhilPhan99 folds
sharkn calls 270
Cosey folds
Wetts1012 calls 170
*** FLOP *** [Ac Ts 2c]
Wetts1012 checks
roddman67 has 15 seconds left to act
roddman67 bets 600
sharkn has 15 seconds left to act
sharkn raises to 1,200
Wetts1012 has 15 seconds left to act

Comments

  • compueasecompuease Admin
    Well I'm re-raising to protect against the flush draw. If its set over set, so be it.

    Nice to have some poker discussion, it's getting rare around here, to many childish individuals...
  • STR82ACESTR82ACE
    Very drawish flop. Given the chance, I'm going to get all my chips in on the flop to protect against flush and straights. With no other reads available, you can't fold a set here.
  • MidnightMikeMidnightMike
    I'm shoving them in there. Like said above if its set over set so be it. To many draws out there, get him off them or make him pay for them. He might think 2 pair is good (A,10 wouldnt be uncommon to see) and you could be getting paid off big.
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    Thanks. Theres no way Im folding here. This is a super set flop.

    I shoved and found 2 folds.

    Was just wondering if anyone flats to give 1 more card.
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    Well since you are in position I could flat this here, if and a big if, you can get away if the potential flush hits and one of the two ops pushes... Doesn't look like either are on a str8 draw since they would have to be betting their gutshot so I wouldn't be afraid of a gutshot, ie KQ, KJ or QJ... How about a min raise, then get it in on a non flush turn? If I'm feeling dangerous I could do that...
    If one of them is on A,10 as Mike says, he would likely ship after your min raise and you beat him into the pot.. Danger then is if sharkn is on the flush draw he may then call for odds knowing he's seeing 2 cards..
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    I think I may flat here because it seems as though the min raise is an A with some sort of draw. You all have effective deep stacks so it may be worth your while to keep the pots small so you can grab a larger pot on the turn or river if they improve 2 pair etc...

    However my disclaimer is as follows.... you must be able to fold a set if the flush comes no matter what the bet on the river is. That is the disadvantage of the small ball approach.

    Cheers
  • GrahamGraham
    I'd shove. I hate 2s tbh though.
  • zunni74zunni74
    How do you ever shove here???

    What's calling you? AK I guess, and AT.

    A flush draw isn't likely calling neither is a straight draw (not that I see 34, 45, 35 calling pre-flop)

    Flat call here and see what the turn brings, if it's another club then you can re-evaluate.

    But shoving is not the most profitable play EVER in this situation.
  • PokerKaiPokerKai
    flatting is awful in this spot

    ask yourself...what is the purpose of the flat? to disguise our hand strength to induce action. the problem with flatting in this spot is that given the stack sizes, a flat looks extremely strong. theres no point, especially when the pot is big, the board is drawy and the players have already put in multiple bets.

    just shove and ignore the FPS voice in your head.
  • PokerKaiPokerKai
    for those of you saying a flush draw wont call...consider that our hero can only make it 3905 more with there being 7765 in the pot...the caller just barely under 2 to 1 on his money. It would be a mistake to fold any of the following flush draws. KQ, QJ, KJ, 43, 45...even if our hero turned over his set and showed it to them!

    It is BARELY a mistake to call with any other flush draw.
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    Not sure I agree here Kai, if this were a rebuy or a cash game I could understand, but hate just getting all (most) of my chips in on a draw when it is so close to +/- ev..... If op pushed on me in this situation and I had one of those hands, I fold.. I try to always be the aggressor in marginal situations. Am I way off base here?
  • zunni74zunni74
    Need to explain this in more detail....
  • cadillaccadillac
    Shove and it's not even close.


    There are many hands that will call off and there is not enough upside to letting both villains peel on that board.


    It is a tournament. Your goal here is to accumulate chips and this is a perfect spot to do so.
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    cadillac wrote: »
    Shove and it's not even close.


    There are many hands that will call off and there is not enough upside to letting both villains peel on that board.


    It is a tournament. Your goal here is to accumulate chips and this is a perfect spot to do so.
    While this is the obvious answer and probably what I would do instinctively and most of the time, I think what op was saying is there another way to play it. Yes there is, with some risk and potentially greater rewards. If he flats, roddman67 likely pushes if he has A,10 or better, if not the risk is avoiding the club on the turn, with 4360 in the pot at that point and 4830 that op has left, it should be enough to push out any flush draws post turn. The only way I don't get it all in on the turn is if a club comes, or the board pairs, one of the 2 opponents bets and I may flat again. If he just pushes on flop, any good tournament players fold unless they have 2 pair. Like I said risk/reward, you make that choice.. And you are right, accumulating chips is the goal, buuuuut.. which way is best....? Of course there are enough donkeys around that would push in ops place with a naked flush draw, so maybe a push would be interpreted as that and get him a caller as well. lol, this is what makes poker so much fun, everyone has different ways of playing.

    I'm not sure I understand Kai's numbers....
  • Wetts1012Wetts1012
    PokerKai wrote: »
    the problem with flatting in this spot is that given the stack sizes, a flat looks extremely strong.

    This was my thought here. A flat is almost always a huge hand, based on my check.

    I figured with a shove I may get looked up as light as AJ, and likely by a FD.
  • westside8westside8
    Easy shove here. A flat behind a bet and min-raise, as well as given the stack sizes, basically will always mean an extremely strong hand. By shoving, you have a chance to be called by a weak hand like TP or something
  • BlondeFishBlondeFish
    OMG, a POKER debate breaks out in the forum! ;)
    PokerKai wrote: »
    for those of you saying a flush draw wont call...consider that our hero can only make it 3905 more with there being 7765 in the pot...the caller just barely under 2 to 1 on his money. It would be a mistake to fold any of the following flush draws. KQ, QJ, KJ, 43, 45...even if our hero turned over his set and showed it to them!
    This is WHY hero can opt for the small-ball strategy of flat-calling when it is so early in the tournament. If the turn is a third club, hero can fold to a big bet and still have 4,830 chips with an M of 32. Hero can still make it to the final four :) instead of being victimized by variance and flushed out of the tournament. By the way, hero sounds disappointed by the two folds when he went all-in, but winning chips (2,860) immediately with zero variance is great in a tournament.
  • GrahamGraham
    BlondeFish wrote: »
    OMG, a POKER debate breaks out in the forum! ;)
    This is WHY hero can opt for the small-ball strategy of flat-calling when it is so early in the tournament. If the turn is a third club, hero can fold to a big bet and still have 4,830 chips with an M of 32. Hero can still make it to the final four :) instead of being victimized by variance and flushed out of the tournament. By the way, hero sounds disappointed by the two folds when he went all-in, but winning chips (2,860) immediately with zero variance is great in a tournament.

    Do you think the hero will be able to extract any more chips on the turn or river without a club by flat calling? Wouldn't this essentially be giving the opponents a free card instead of trying to get the money in ahead?
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    I think a key here is the reads on the villians. Are we certain that one of the villian is on a flush draw. Does a flat call on your end tell the villian you have a monster or does it tell the villian you are on a draw and you are looking to improve.
  • MidnightMikeMidnightMike
    BlondeFish wrote: »
    OMG, a POKER debate breaks out in the forum! ;)
    This is WHY hero can opt for the small-ball strategy of flat-calling when it is so early in the tournament. If the turn is a third club, hero can fold to a big bet and still have 4,830 chips with an M of 32. Hero can still make it to the final four :) instead of being victimized by variance and flushed out of the tournament. By the way, hero sounds disappointed by the two folds when he went all-in, but winning chips (2,860) immediately with zero variance is great in a tournament.



    thank you blonde fish.

    My opinion for as little as its worth. Stop overthinking the hand. Pick up the 2860 ( even if its 1/2 value or less in profit) in chips and move on to the next hand.
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    You see, I don't think there is a clear obvious way to play this. I can see pro/cons for at least 3 ways of playing this on the flop, flatting, min raising or pushing. All have their merits, risks, cons...etc. So much depends on your reads of the two ops and even MORE important what you think, they think of you.. For example if you know thay will think that by you flatting or min raising you have a monster, then obviously push. If you think they are not even paying any real attention to you then you may be able to flat and get their chips on a non club turn or river, by them making 2 "Pair"... That's what makes these sort of discussions great, we all learn from each other.. Makes us all better and cognizant of the fact that we all play different. The more aware we are of how our opponents perceive us the better we will do individually.
  • MidnightMikeMidnightMike
    but what if i was to say to you that i am aware of that. That i might change my game because i know that you know that you know that i know we might make a move.
  • MidnightMikeMidnightMike
    i dont mean to make fun, but its nice to see some poker chat for a change
  • compueasecompuease Admin
    MidnightMike wrote: »
    i dont mean to make fun, but its nice to see some poker chat for a change
    Couldn't agree more... And how many levels deep are we thinking here? lol.... I do know I'm in deep doodoo trying to outthink you poker gurus here.
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