Spotting collusion
I've been playing some new games recently. Found one game that is right around my level and I can take a good chunk of change each game. The second game found me. Guy who was playing at the first game comes up to me afterward and explains he runs a game the next night. I was feeling pretty good from my +$600 night so I said sure.
As soon as I showed up I knew I was in trouble. Windows blocked off. Security camera on the door. I look at the players at the table and immediately recognize three of them as regulars at the casino which, considering I've only been about a half a dozen times, was not a good sign.
I played for about 3 hours. Folded mostly, just tried to stay out of the way until I could get a read on people. Dropped my first buy in ($100) w/AKc vs AQd; villian flopped top two pair. Rebought for same amount and kept playing tight. It was at around hour two that I started to feel really uneasy. I thought I was just being paranoid, but I kept seeing glances exchanged between two players, possibly three. One of the players kept "accidentally" exposing one or both of his cards while folding when the other guy raised preflop. This happens once, I'm thinking honest mistake. Having been trying to get reads on everyone though, I see this happen 5 or 6 times and it's definitely no mistake.
I'm not sure if the club was in on this or not. I'm inclined to say no, but as it was my first time at a true underground I can't be certain. I dropped my second buy in on a 15 outer (A10s vs K8c; board 4c6sKsJd; river 9d and I'm out). This was another hand where the cards were exposed preflop: Kh4d. With all the weirdness I was feeling, I stood up and, proclaiming it to not be my night, walked away.
I don't think I'm going back. While I'm all for trying to play against tougher competition, these guys could all smoke my butt so I'm really just going to hang out with random strangers and give them my money. The guy who runs the game has called me twice since then to see about me coming out again. I've been at work both times so I haven't had to talk to him.
How do I handle this? How do I handle it when I see or suspect I see collusion at the table? It's obviously going to be different at a casino vs a home game vs an underground, but I'm not really sure what to do as I'm new to underground games.
As soon as I showed up I knew I was in trouble. Windows blocked off. Security camera on the door. I look at the players at the table and immediately recognize three of them as regulars at the casino which, considering I've only been about a half a dozen times, was not a good sign.
I played for about 3 hours. Folded mostly, just tried to stay out of the way until I could get a read on people. Dropped my first buy in ($100) w/AKc vs AQd; villian flopped top two pair. Rebought for same amount and kept playing tight. It was at around hour two that I started to feel really uneasy. I thought I was just being paranoid, but I kept seeing glances exchanged between two players, possibly three. One of the players kept "accidentally" exposing one or both of his cards while folding when the other guy raised preflop. This happens once, I'm thinking honest mistake. Having been trying to get reads on everyone though, I see this happen 5 or 6 times and it's definitely no mistake.
I'm not sure if the club was in on this or not. I'm inclined to say no, but as it was my first time at a true underground I can't be certain. I dropped my second buy in on a 15 outer (A10s vs K8c; board 4c6sKsJd; river 9d and I'm out). This was another hand where the cards were exposed preflop: Kh4d. With all the weirdness I was feeling, I stood up and, proclaiming it to not be my night, walked away.
I don't think I'm going back. While I'm all for trying to play against tougher competition, these guys could all smoke my butt so I'm really just going to hang out with random strangers and give them my money. The guy who runs the game has called me twice since then to see about me coming out again. I've been at work both times so I haven't had to talk to him.
How do I handle this? How do I handle it when I see or suspect I see collusion at the table? It's obviously going to be different at a casino vs a home game vs an underground, but I'm not really sure what to do as I'm new to underground games.
Comments
I don't know if I'd even bother telling the guy who runs the game what you're thinking.
If the guy's running an underground game, one has to assume he's 'been around the block' and has some experience with the game. If he didn't notice that far too many obvious mistakes were being made at a table full of guys who know poker and play lots...you've got to wonder.
Just my thoughts.
Through the first 4 levels, I play exactly 1 hand. Not because I am super tight or anything, but because the table was very loose with raises almost every hand. If I had something, I was either out of position or not enough players were in, etc.
Anyhow, we hit the break and dude 2 to my right asks me if I am going to play a hand, we all laugh.
Come back from break and dude 2 to my right is already seated and the first dealer is back.
I look down to find aces on the puck, two limp and I pump it 5 x BB, get 2 callers, one of which is dude 2 to my right.
Flop is 10-6-2 rainbow. Check, check to me, I pot it and dude 2 to my right calls.
Turn is 7, making two diamonds. He says 'all in' and before he finishes his sentence I say "call". I am 100% certain I am leading. So certain that I do something I seldom do, I turn my hand up first.
River is another diamond and he turns over ace four of diamonds.
I KNOW there was something funny going on. The way he reacted. The way the dealer reacted. In fact, 2 other players ask 'how can you call 5xBB out of position to 'super tight' player, then call a pot bet on the flop with nothing?'
I never went back because I hate being cheated.
Poker players need to trust their instinct...
I have been to many different places to play and I see it all the time where people will check down the flop (I do it too), especially if there is already 300+ in the pot preflop and I am miles ahead, I know its -ev but when you have to go back to the same place every week to play with the same 100 people in rotation its nice to me known as the polite guy instead of the mega jerk at the table.
The key to playing underground in these games is to really watch how they play against you directly. I find there is more collusion in the casinos and its way more obvious than in an underground game. Think of it this way, if a game has a few people colluding, would anyone want to go back.
Judging also from your post about the pot sizes you are playing 1/2 so I really don't see a benefit of collusion in such a small game.
As you get more experience with underground places you will find there is a certain vibe that is given off. Just adjust accordingly and you will be fine.
Personally I have been playing underground now for about 7 years and I have yet to be to a game that I felt uncomfortable in, because at the end of the day, they want you to come back.
I find you get treated much nicer in underground clubs, the people are generally nicer (obviously you get a few people that aren't but that happens anywhere). You get free food, all night, good conversations, and get to watch for the most part "interesting" poker.
I just try to steer away from tournaments with big fields underground as they usually attrack the cops to come and bust the place....but cash games with 10-20 people hanging out really never have a problem.
I have two friends that I've known all my life. We all play competitively, but there are many times where I will simply know what hand my buddy has with precision and make plays against the flow of the table relative to his cards. It's almost like silent collusion, if others were coaxed to get involved in the hand.
I can count 4 or 5 players who avoid hands altogether against my "three stooges", and that's what ya gotta do if your instincts are telling you something is fishy.