How much do I have to bet?

Quinner

1.) To get my opponent off a pair of two'??

PokerStars Game #27203917368: Tournament #156681383, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (75/150) - 2009/04/17 19:12:25 ET
Table '156681383 5' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Quinner777 (5100 in chips)
Seat 2: zavala789 (3305 in chips)
Seat 3: karmabobby (11360 in chips)
Seat 4: Pallmall134 (2995 in chips)
Seat 7: bisquitass (5000 in chips)
Seat 8: Faramir100 (9065 in chips)
Seat 9: doolak04 (4950 in chips)
Quinner777: posts the ante 20
zavala789: posts the ante 20
karmabobby: posts the ante 20
Pallmall134: posts the ante 20
bisquitass: posts the ante 20
Faramir100: posts the ante 20
doolak04: posts the ante 20
zavala789: posts small blind 75
karmabobby: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Quinner777 [Kc Tc]
Pallmall134: folds
bisquitass: folds
Faramir100: calls 150
doolak04: folds
Quinner777: calls 150
zavala789: folds
karmabobby: checks
*** FLOP *** [7d 2s Ks]
karmabobby: checks
Faramir100: checks
Quinner777: bets 600
karmabobby: folds
Faramir100: calls 600
*** TURN *** [7d 2s Ks] [7s]
Faramir100: checks
Quinner777: checks
*** RIVER *** [7d 2s Ks 7s] [2h]
Faramir100: bets 750
Quinner777: calls 750
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Faramir100: shows [Ah 2d] (a full house, Deuces full of Sevens)
Quinner777: mucks hand
Faramir100 collected 3365 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3365 | Rake 0
Board [7d 2s Ks 7s 2h]
Seat 1: Quinner777 (button) mucked [Kc Tc]
Seat 2: zavala789 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: karmabobby (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Pallmall134 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: bisquitass folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Faramir100 showed [Ah 2d] and won (3365) with a full house, Deuces full of Sevens
Seat 9: doolak04 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

In this hand I bet pot to kill any draws. When I get flatted I'm not particularly suspicious because this player is pretty bad, and for that matter I'm putting him on the spade draw. When the turn comes a spade I'm planning to fold to a bet here when none comes, so I check behind for some pot control. The river card is a total blank (at least thats what I thought!), and at this point I still think he's slowplaying the flush. When he bets into me I'm literally calling for information only, just to see if he plays draws completely against the odds. I'm floored to find A2o here. I had been playing pretty tight most of this tourney so I can't believe he's calling me THIS light in this spot, I think I played some 20% of the hands given to me, so wth??

2.) To get him off A8o in the small blind??

PokerStars Game #27204058307: Tournament #156681383, $2.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (75/150) - 2009/04/17 19:16:47 ET
Table '156681383 5' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Quinner777 (4380 in chips)
Seat 2: zavala789 (3130 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: karmabobby (11180 in chips)
Seat 4: Pallmall134 (2670 in chips)
Seat 7: bisquitass (4450 in chips)
Seat 8: Faramir100 (10525 in chips)
Seat 9: doolak04 (5440 in chips)
Quinner777: posts the ante 20
zavala789: posts the ante 20
karmabobby: posts the ante 20
Pallmall134: posts the ante 20
bisquitass: posts the ante 20
Faramir100: posts the ante 20
doolak04: posts the ante 20
doolak04: posts small blind 75
Quinner777: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Quinner777 [Qh Ac]
zavala789: folds
karmabobby: folds
Pallmall134: folds
bisquitass: calls 150
Faramir100: folds
doolak04: calls 75
Quinner777: raises 450 to 600
bisquitass: folds
doolak04: calls 450
*** FLOP *** [8c 2d 5c]
doolak04: bets 450
Quinner777: calls 450
*** TURN *** [8c 2d 5c] [6d]
doolak04: bets 150
Quinner777: calls 150
*** RIVER *** [8c 2d 5c 6d] [3d]
doolak04: checks
Quinner777: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
doolak04: shows [Ad 8s] (a pair of Eights)
Quinner777: mucks hand
doolak04 collected 2690 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2690 | Rake 0
Board [8c 2d 5c 6d 3d]
Seat 1: Quinner777 (big blind) mucked [Qh Ac]
Seat 2: zavala789 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: karmabobby folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Pallmall134 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: bisquitass folded before Flop
Seat 8: Faramir100 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: doolak04 (small blind) showed [Ad 8s] and won (2690) with a pair of Eights

Seriously, this last one I'm just super not impressed I even get called here with two limps. The rest is me just giving away my chips for free while he takes me to value city. I had to know if this is how he plays his pocket pairs, which is exactly the only kind of hand I could put him on at this point. Again, A8o just floored me.

What the hell can I learn from this?? (Mostly the first hand, the second hand I'm just hoping to hit one of my overcards which was actually just really dumb and tilty) These two hands happened almost one right after the other.

Hobbes

$2 tourney he ain't folding 2 pair

2nd one...he has an Ace...nuff said

Quinner

Hobbes wrote: »

2nd one...he has an Ace...nuff said

Here's what I don't understand.

My range: 88+, AJ, AQ, AK.

His hand vs. my possible hands is absolutely awful.

And somehow when I finally pick up a good hand he manages to outflop me with his terrible call!! Wtf??

I just don't understand how to win at tournament poker I seriously don't and shit like this just puts me off it so bad.

Is there something I can do to avoid these situations?? It seems like every tourney I play I'm knocked out by a coinflip or I'm card dead and can't get any momentum, OR someone is playing something I would never suspect and gets a good chunk of change off me. Or lastly just plain bad luck, my Kings run into aces, or my aces get cracked stuff like that.

All this to avoid and still make it to the final table....how do these online pro's like AJKHoosier consistently make it into the money?? Seriously? I find it mind boggling.

And sorry I'm just realizing how whiney this post is sounding, but damn man sometimes in poker I really feel like I've fallen into a deep hole...

Hobbes

Quinner wrote: »

Here's what I don't understand.

My range: 88+, AJ, AQ, AK.

His hand vs. my possible hands is absolutely awful.

Variance.....you need to remind yourself that you want him to make the call.

Big Mike

Hobbes wrote: »

Variance.....you need to remind yourself that you want him to make the call.

^^This. You want to win all the chips. This means people have to call with worse hands. It's a rare tournament where your opponents are drawing totally dead every time the call you.:)

Quinner

Thats true I do want him to make that call, but when players play bad, as you can see I'm still calling that river....should I be folding here just assuming he's got me beat with something? The line he takes is pretty obvious for a broad range of hands that beat me. Like I said, he either caught his flush, or was possibly slowplaying a set, the latter which I find unlikely. Anyway the question is, should I be paying him off on the river for the information?? Or is that just bad poker? Honestly what can I really beat when he bets into me on the river? And yet my curiousity was just so great that I just had to know what he called me with.

Another case of curiosity killing the cat I guess...

Henjon

I think curiosity is a feeling you have to set aside completely if you want to be a good poker player. Logic and gut feeling is what counts. What I've noticed regarding my own play is an increasing ability to "sense" something suspicious in my opponents play and make a call or re-raise based on that. If I don't have this feeling, I normally fold with a marginal hand. If I sometimes make a call even though I will find myself staring into a hand that has me beaten 9 times out of 10.

Hand #1 of course is an extremely dangerous board with the possibilty of both a flush and a full house. And what does his little bet tell us? That he's afraid of having you call him? Or that he realizes that a small bet is the only chance of having some more chips in the pot for him to collect? There's of course also the possibility that he realizes he's not on the nuts. But this part of his thought process is not interesting if you're just going to call.

What about if you raised him all-in? No - I would say this is a hopeless play as well:
- If he's a bad player he will look down on his full house and make a call - he won't even think about the possibility that you might have a 7
- If he's an intermediate he will realize that this is the kind of situations you will have to play tough if you'll ever able to gain any success in MTT:s
- If he's an expert he probably will think that your betting pattern speaks for two possibilities: Either you have a king, or you're on a complete bluff. So he will call without much thought.

So no matter what, everything points to a single conclusion: We're beaten and we won't be able to make our opponent fold. Just lay down your hand and wait for a better opportunity.

I think your only chance would have been to take advantage of your position and the fact that a very scary card landed on the turn and bet a decent amount of chips. Given what we know about his cards he would have folded if he wasn't a calling station. But then again you have to take the risk that he was slowplaying a flush or trips.

As for hand #2 this is also a spot on the river when you might want to take a chance and take advantage of your position and the fact that a scary card landed (both a flush and a straight could have been completed). Let's analyze his play:

- He made a little bet (1/3 of the pot) on the flop.
- He made an even smaller bet (ridiculously small) on the turn.
- He checked the river.

To me this doesn't smell like someone slowplaying a monster. It looks like someone with something like a medium pair. The litle bet on the turn feels like a blocking bet. I'd say there's a good chance he would have folded, had you put in a decent bet there. But of course those plays are risky. I would be more willing to do them in a MTT than in an STT though.

Quinner

It's good advice Henjon, and I would play a bit stronger poker in BOTH situations if I hadn't learned that at this level....players just aren't thinking enough about what you have often enough to make bluffing profitable. When I move up in stakes a bit, that's when I'll really start trying some moves..... becuz they might actually have a chance at working!

pokrgod

Quinner wrote: »

It's good advice Henjon, and I would play a bit stronger poker in BOTH situations if I hadn't learned that at this level....players just aren't thinking enough about what you have often enough to make bluffing profitable. When I move up in stakes a bit, that's when I'll really start trying some moves..... becuz they might actually have a chance at working!

I think in this situation (2nd hand) with him making a small turn bet and checking the river you have to think about how they have been playing instead of how they should be playing. Sounds to me like a lot of chasing in this tourney too, am I right? He showed incredible weakness on the turn and river. The river completes a straight and flush draw. You're last to act here. I know you're looking for info but a good size bet here, you win the pot. 1 card to make a straight or if he thinks you may have been suited, he's worried you made your hand. Take advantage here. You sound like a good player but I'm sure others at the table are thinking you're playing like them. He thought you were chasing. Take advantage.

g2

Quinner wrote: »

Honestly what can I really beat when he bets into me on the river?

Exactly... so calling is the WORST choice. And no, I'm not saying fold. When an opponent shows weakness like he did (look at the amounts he is betting, relative to pot size / stacks etc). You seem to forget that another way to win a pot is to RAISE, and get your opponent to fold a better hand than your own. A little something called bluffing. Sure, this doesn't always work - but you didn't even consider it here.

/g2

Quinner

g2 wrote: »

Exactly... so calling is the WORST choice. And no, I'm not saying fold. When an opponent shows weakness like he did (look at the amounts he is betting, relative to pot size / stacks etc). You seem to forget that another way to win a pot is to RAISE, and get your opponent to fold a better hand than your own. A little something called bluffing. Sure, this doesn't always work - but you didn't even consider it here.

/g2

Well the call was because I wanted to see his hand, definitely a choice I have recently decided to stop doing. I've noticed that often enough If I feel I'm beat I usually am and don't need to see their cards.

Also I really really doubt raising him is going to make him fold his full house. He's probably not putting me on a 7 and even if he did, I think he would look me up anyway. I made a couple of mistakes in this hand. 1) Not betting the turn and 2.) calling down when I am almost sure I'm behind.

g2

Quinner wrote: »

Also I really really doubt raising him is going to make him fold his full house.

The river is not your only chance to raise.

/g2

Quinner

g2 wrote: »

The river is not your only chance to raise.

/g2

Maybe we're getting our terminology mixed up. When I think of raise I usually think of someone betting and then you raise that bet. Otherwise if you're the first to put money into the pot I just call that betting. The only chance I had to raise was on the river because that was the only time he bet into me. But if you mean I should be betting the turn, I think you're absolutely right.

g2

Quinner wrote: »

Maybe we're getting our terminology mixed up. When I think of raise I usually think of someone betting and then you raise that bet. Otherwise if you're the first to put money into the pot I just call that betting. The only chance I had to raise was on the river because that was the only time he bet into me. But if you mean I should be betting the turn, I think you're absolutely right.

I was talking about Hand 2, for the most part. Not to say that my tips don't apply to any hand.

/g2