More hand analysis.
After reading the excellent replies to AcesFull's post in the 'Ask Dave Scharf' section, I thought I'd post two interesting (to me) situations from last night, as well.
#1.
From the same tournament AcesFull was in, the Woodbridge one. It's early in the tournament, the blinds are 25/50, and I have about 2000 or so (everyone starts with 2000). I'm dealt QQ in MP. One EP limper, I raise to 250, and then a player behind me pushes all-in. EP folds, and it's back to me. I have him covered... if I call the raise and lose I'll have 500 left.
The reason this was a tough decision for me was because it was so damn early in the tournament, and there were no rebuys. I also thought (perhaps delusionally) that I was one of the better players in the tourney, so the prospect of risking that much of my stack that early in the tournament didn't really appeal to me. I'd seen this player raise 2 hands already--AK and ATs, but he didn't push with either of them. Your thoughts?
#2.
Later that night, during a $100 Stars PL tourney at home. About 105 starters, we're down to 19, top 18 pay. (18th gets like $130, so making it past the bubble wasn't a huge concern for me). I have about 8K, and the blinds are at 200/400. I'm about 10th at the time, and I get A:diamond: T:diamond: in the BB.
An extremely aggressive player (even moreso now that it's bubble time) with a very big stack (15K?) raises it to 1400 from EP. Folded to me, and I just call. The flop comes A:club: 9:diamond: 3
. I check--planning to check-raise--and he bets 3000, which is more than I was expecting. Fold, call, or move in?
Regards,
all_aces
#1.
From the same tournament AcesFull was in, the Woodbridge one. It's early in the tournament, the blinds are 25/50, and I have about 2000 or so (everyone starts with 2000). I'm dealt QQ in MP. One EP limper, I raise to 250, and then a player behind me pushes all-in. EP folds, and it's back to me. I have him covered... if I call the raise and lose I'll have 500 left.
The reason this was a tough decision for me was because it was so damn early in the tournament, and there were no rebuys. I also thought (perhaps delusionally) that I was one of the better players in the tourney, so the prospect of risking that much of my stack that early in the tournament didn't really appeal to me. I'd seen this player raise 2 hands already--AK and ATs, but he didn't push with either of them. Your thoughts?
#2.
Later that night, during a $100 Stars PL tourney at home. About 105 starters, we're down to 19, top 18 pay. (18th gets like $130, so making it past the bubble wasn't a huge concern for me). I have about 8K, and the blinds are at 200/400. I'm about 10th at the time, and I get A:diamond: T:diamond: in the BB.
An extremely aggressive player (even moreso now that it's bubble time) with a very big stack (15K?) raises it to 1400 from EP. Folded to me, and I just call. The flop comes A:club: 9:diamond: 3
. I check--planning to check-raise--and he bets 3000, which is more than I was expecting. Fold, call, or move in?Regards,
all_aces
Comments
hand 2
i doubt flat calling is really an option ... he'll likely force you to a decision for your remaining 3500 later in the hand anyways ... and by that point i can't see you getting away from the hand.
Funny thing is that his bet doesn't seem that odd. He was the agressor pre-flop and he followed it up with what is more or less a pot sized bet.
pushing all-in you're not going to get him to release this hand with this much invested.
Still with no draws that a person holding ACE-big kicker should fear. This is a spot where he is more likely to be representing the Ace and figures to push you off of your medium to high PP or whatever he suspects you to be having. If he has Ace big kicker i think he tries to milk you along for the ride with more bite sized bets on the flop, turn and river.
1) If he's raised with AK and AT earlier but not all-in there's something different about this hand for him. I'd guess a pocket pair? Hard to put him on AA or KK. It's early in the tournament and you'd have to figure he see a flop to try and extract more value from you. His all-in makes it seem like he's a little scared of you seeing the flop, and hitting a hand, so I'd put him on a medium-high pair, T's or J's, and call.
2) The 3000 bet is interesting in two ways. One, it's pot size, so it seems like he's trying to protect something. With no flush or straight on the river, it sounds like a weak Ace. The 3,000 bet is also almost half your stack, which I'd assume he knows you can't call unless you willing to commit all your chips to the pot. My gut is telling me he doesn't really want you in the hand and is trying to push you off with a weak Ace. If you're not concerned about cashing, the double-up will get you deep in the money, and if he's ahead you have some miracle card that could help. (Any 10 and a possible backdoor flush)
How wrong am I?
2. Call. I think I'm going to be willing to play this hand for all my chips after spiking my Ace against a hyper-aggressive player, but I don't see any reason to make an aggressive bet myself. This is a classic "one of you is way behind" scenario.
Unless I catch a running flush, I would check/call it down. I can't see the opponent either paying off a value bet, or letting go of a better hand here. If he's chasing, he's got 3 outs tops.
Give him the chance to bluff again if he's behind.
ScottyZ
Hand Two: I disaggree that you do not have enough to push chip leader off a hand. Your raise will be in the neighbourhood of $4,000. That is enough to really hurt them and make them fold Ax etc. If called your bust or doubled up. I think this is a good enough situation plus it puts you in great position for a strong finish.
Jamie.
#1.
After thinking and thinking, I eventually decided that he was most likely to have a smaller pocket pair than mine, that didn't want action. Pushing with AA or KK was unlikely (although not impossible) and the hand I feared most was AK, as I didn't want to coin-flip for most of my stack.
But eventually I decided that the chances were good that he had a smaller pocket pair, so I called. That's what poker's all about... making a decision and then sticking to it, for better or for worse. He had pocket 8's, and I knocked him out of the tournament.
Then he started asking me (several times) what took me so long to call. I guess he thought it was a very simple call to make, and I'm glad that the replies on this forum indicate that it wasn't anywhere near cut-and-dry. I think he was just pissed off that I knocked him out, so he got it into his head that I was somehow slowrolling him, which I wasn't, at all.
#2.
After he bet 3000, I check-raised all-in, and he called. He had AJ, and I busted out. Oops.
Cheers,
all_aces
Did you say "Because I didn't yet know you were such a loose cannon," or just think it?
Obviously he thinks this. If he thinks 88 is a re-raising hand, then to him QQ is the stone cold nuts.
Related to something Dave Scharf said in another thread, people generally thinking this way is one of the main reasons that I *would* push all-in in such a spot with AA. The nice thing is that this play works on both thinking and non-thinking players.
ScottyZ
Here's the thing about just going ahead and pushing with AA or KK. You stand to win a bigger pot if you just call the raise, or raise by only the same amount as the original raise, if you're up against a hand like TT, JJ, QQ. These hands might fold to your all-in, but if they see a flop of rags, it will be almost impossible for them to get away from their hands.
Of course, you run the risk of them hitting a set, but that's a pretty low risk for a pretty big reward.
I forgot one thing: the original limper in that 'QQ' hand folded 99. The flop came 9-high. I should have gone broke on that hand, if not for LP's all-in move.
Regards,
all_aces
But then again, what does TJ know, he's never won the big one.
hork.
Cheers,
all_aces
It's definitely a challenging hand to play pre-flop for a tonne of chips. As all_aces mentioned already, the possibility of a hand like AK being out against you makes QQ worlds apart from either AA or KK.
ScottyZ
I busted out when there were still 4 (of 7) tables left, so I didn't really bother counting. If we're there again on the same night, please introduce yourself! I love meeting forum folks.
Regards,
all_aces
Well I'll be there next week for sure again, I thought it was an awesome tourney and I can't do any worse next time since I went out first! I'll be sure to say hi next time. How are the cash games afterward?