A Correct AA Fold
DoNs actually provide the somewhat rare situations where a fold is correct and this certainly qualified, especially for Omaha. I would probably still fold AA in a NL one as well based on the stack sizes involved in the hand (well, ok maybe not, but maybe).
PokerStars Game #26547356282: Tournament #152073542, $10.00+$0.40 Omaha Pot Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2009/03/30 18:02:06 ET
Table '152073542 1' 10-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 2: maxfoxim (1030 in chips)
Seat 3: gavan_razvan (1195 in chips)
Seat 5: Racer X 1234 (3655 in chips)
Seat 8: Monteroy (1860 in chips)
Seat 9: d3c0d3r (4560 in chips)
Seat 10: lololulu (2700 in chips)
d3c0d3r: posts small blind 200
lololulu: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Ah Ad Jc 9d]
maxfoxim: raises 630 to 1030 and is all-in
gavan_razvan: calls 1030
Racer X 1234: folds
Monteroy: folds
d3c0d3r: folds
lololulu has timed out
lololulu: folds
lololulu is sitting out
*** FLOP *** [4d 2s Qh]
lololulu has returned
*** TURN *** [4d 2s Qh] [6c]
*** RIVER *** [4d 2s Qh 6c] [8c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
maxfoxim: shows [4h Kh Td 8d] (two pair, Eights and Fours)
gavan_razvan: shows [7d Ac As 3s] (a pair of Aces)
maxfoxim collected 2660 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
PokerStars Game #26547356282: Tournament #152073542, $10.00+$0.40 Omaha Pot Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2009/03/30 18:02:06 ET
Table '152073542 1' 10-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 2: maxfoxim (1030 in chips)
Seat 3: gavan_razvan (1195 in chips)
Seat 5: Racer X 1234 (3655 in chips)
Seat 8: Monteroy (1860 in chips)
Seat 9: d3c0d3r (4560 in chips)
Seat 10: lololulu (2700 in chips)
d3c0d3r: posts small blind 200
lololulu: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Ah Ad Jc 9d]
maxfoxim: raises 630 to 1030 and is all-in
gavan_razvan: calls 1030
Racer X 1234: folds
Monteroy: folds
d3c0d3r: folds
lololulu has timed out
lololulu: folds
lololulu is sitting out
*** FLOP *** [4d 2s Qh]
lololulu has returned
*** TURN *** [4d 2s Qh] [6c]
*** RIVER *** [4d 2s Qh 6c] [8c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
maxfoxim: shows [4h Kh Td 8d] (two pair, Eights and Fours)
gavan_razvan: shows [7d Ac As 3s] (a pair of Aces)
maxfoxim collected 2660 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Comments
Second of all, you seriously folded AA single suited with a face card cuz two shorter stacks pushed infront of you? AT WORST you are flipping, at best you have 40% equity.
Are PokerJah's ball marks on your face also rubbing his poker skill off on you?
And fuck you for still making "The showdown justifys my play" results-based crap this-is-why-I-suck decisions.
Don't feel bad, the rest of the forum has been on it for months.
/g2
BBC is completely right.
Mark
It was a Double or Nothing with 6 people left. When a single person is eliminated the other 5 win.
The 2 small stacks with pretty much identical stacks were all in before it was my turn to act.
I had the 3rd worst stack.
Yeah it was Omaha which is why I made this a bit of a tongue in cheek post, but even in NL why take the chance that somehow you go against KQ and KQ and they tie and win and suddenly you are the shortie, or even another strange situation where the shortie wins the main pot and the 2nd low guy gets second best hand leaving him with 300ish and you with 500ish after the fact.
I did not think I would need to explain this context.
Heh, showdown justifies results - who cares about the showdown, that had nothing to do with it. Point was I did not really care who won the hand...
How about this to make it even more clear.
If my opponents showed me hands of 2227 and 3338 rainbow before I had to choose my action I still fold in that spot. Feel free to plug that scenario into your EV calculator
A: You're right, it is a DoN tourney
B: You have more chips than both the other two all ins
So, your action allows you to win right now ONLY if Gavan beats maxform. However, if you call, you give yourself a chance to win if
A: You beat Maxform
B: You beat gavan
C: Gavan beats Maxform
I know that you're rarely a huge favorite in OM, but even in NLHE I'm calling here. I'm calling both AI's with a lot lighter in this situation in NLHE too.
Mark
Actually the irony is an AA hand is often pretty smelly in this spot in DoNs as very, very often the second all in also has AA (in gavins case - a regular- that is a near certainty in this spot) in which case my AA hand is pretty much an underdog vs any 4 non paired hands by the 3rd guy (the first all in). SO this is actually a very easy Omaha fold because my hand is more akin to AK or AQ facing two all ins in holdem. It looks really pretty, but not so much.
It is unlikely that the final outcome will be 1) max 2) gavan 3) Monteroy but if somehow they split the main pot I have suddenly become the real short stack. Again, more likely to happen here then in NL, and relatively unlikely but not worth the gamble with 6 left in this spot.
Also, this is why I said in NL I probably still call with AA, since it is unlikely to result in you losing to both hands, and the possibility exists that the shortie wins heads up here if you do not call in which case the other guy still has 130 chips which is critical but not impossible to make a comeback from, especially in a turbo with already healthy blinds.
A more interesting scenario for NL (since in Omaha this is an easy fold no matter what hand with my stack and a very easy call if I had a nice 4k+ stack with a lot of hands) would be if both short stacks had basically identical stacks and again I was the 3rd shortest. Go to the extreme and say all 3 of us have the same stack.
What point is it best to just muck the AA and hope the hand does not result in a tie between them that you could have beaten. Not impossible they have the same type of hand (though the obvious ones of AK or AQ are unlikely if you have two of the aces).
My hand was not a perfect example since it was Omaha and the stack sizes were not quite perfect, but it did bring up a potentially interesting legitimate `do I fold AA here`scenario.
At least that is how I thought it would be seen, some seemed to take this hand a bit too literally I guess or something. I did not anticipate being told the EV of the hand since that was never really an issue in the hand as I saw it, in fact I knew I probably had 30% EV or so given the players and the play, so the correct AA fold is said with tongue firmly in cheek.
Next time I will be less subtle and say "duh, fold AA"
Stopped reading here, was pretty sure I could "coles note" the rest with
"See? See? I was right! I woulda lost! Damn I'm good"
Mark
My fold in this case was very routine and basic. You thinking that I thought it was a magnificent fold just means you completely missed why I even did this post. Maybe this is some type of multi level on your part, but I am inclined to go more with "dumbass" in this case for you.
Did I do this post to show off a brilliant play? Wow, no since my play here was about as standard as it gets. I would fold any Omaha hand in that spot, whether 2222 or AAKK double suited.
Did I do this post tongue in cheek due to all of the random " should I fold AA here" and "how do I not get my AA cracked" posts. Yes.
Did I think my post would be taken so literally in terms of strategy? Umm, no since the "strategy" was pretty meaningless in this spot for Omaha.
Do I think this hand demonstrated a potentially interesting scenario where an AA fold is viable in a no limit DoN? Yes, but that is because of the innate nature of the DoN format which is basically a satellite system.
Seriously, did you and BBZ post while drunk or high or something, or have you both just not played in years? I am surprised both of you completely misread my post and are still doing so.
Extreme cliff notes - Dude, my post had nothing to do with my actual fold
Don't get in a tizzy that your post in the STRATEGY forum was interpreted as STRATEGY.. We have like 15 forums for non-strat you can use.
Seriously? You've been playing poker for 5+ years and still find folding a good hand in a satellite situation interesting? This is why I get anrgy, you should be at the same yawn-point as me over siutations like this that happen over and over and over, but somehow, you aren't.
I admit that I didn't know what DoN meant and I suspected your hand was a boring satellite siuation but it wasn't obvious in the HH.
QFT
Same thing I thought
And the thread title alone gives it a "Ooh, ooh, lookit what I done" tone
Mark
OK, I guess I could have put this in the bad beat section, but the main STRATEGY point (since you all seem so uptight about it) was the relatively new situations that DoNs can provide, and talking about a new popular structure in the game is important in terms of talking strategy.
The fact that this allowed me to also gently poke fun at all the recent AA based bad beat posts by showing a potentially viable AA fold spot was the bonus, and was the basis for the strategy issue.
Not sure how many times I have to make clear that this had nothing to do with a lookit what I done play, as the play was ROUTINE, the NL equivalent would be if I folded AQo in this spot. Do I need a billboard to make you guys understand that this was not the point of the post.
Also next time I will make sure I explain what terms like DoN SnG NL PL etc. mean so as to avoid any more confusion
Yup, those double or nothings are a true innovation in poker. Before they used to be called satellites and no one knew what to do when 6 people were left for 5 spots.
sigh.
http://www.musicoutfitters.com/topsongs/2002.htm
You can crank through all of these as you discuss poker, seems to be the era you are stuck in.
There is a 1000 post + thread on twoplustwo about DoNs so you should go there and grumble and/or mutter at them that this aint no new fangled game as well.
Now I understand why you have that top 100 list bookmarked.
Kind of disappointed.