apparently he was severely bi-polar and off his meds...as I understand it, going off medication is a common symptom of being on the highs and lows that come with his condition. (I think STPboy works in this field and could illuminate?)
On the surface this appears to be another way in which Canada fails those in ill mental health.
1 day in jail is ridiculous, but a life time of psychiatric care in a secure facility is not.
He was on his meds when he chose to go off them. He should be held responsible.
As long as he is off the streets for life I am fine with him getting help instead of jail. But he turned down the mental health help it seems by pleading guilty. He only has to do 6 years and then can stay off his meds again.
My Grandfather didn't fight for years in the war and lose his brother to it in order for someone to go off his meds, kill someone and only get his wrist slapped.
I don't hate this Country. There are many things about Western society that I do hate. One of the biggest is the 'it's not my fault' movement.
Bi-Polars are the same as manic depressives. Their mood swings between the highest of highs and lowest of lows.
Most are capable of functioning at a very high level in society when they take their meds. Most do not like taking their meds. It evens them out and takes away their ability to feel HIGH. Who doesn't want to stay HIGH.
This guy was diagnosed. He was treated. He chose as an individual to go off his meds and this resulted in him taking a life.
I am all for deeming him responsible for his actions and giving him a real sentence.
does a competent person go off their meds for a HIGH, knowing that they are also subjecting themselves to the intense lows and putting people around them at risk?
the person who makes that choice..whether currently medicated or not, clearly is not thinking straight and needs our help.
You are missing a valuable lesson here Kristy... he killed the man that did help him.
He also then chose 6 years in prison vs. getting the metal help he needs. This plea forces no treatment on him at all it seems.
Fuck him. He is responsible for his life. If he continues to make poor choices he should be held accountable... or at least keep him away from the people I love.
does a competent person go off their meds for a HIGH, knowing that they are also subjecting themselves to the intense lows and putting people around them at risk?
Pretty much the same as any normal Joe making a decision to take a drug and alter their own state and then subjecting themselves to intense lows and putting people around them at risk.
My Grandfather didn't fight for years in the war and lose his brother to it in order for someone to go off his meds, kill someone and only get his wrist slapped.
Commendable for your families sacrifice but don't you think this line of thinking is a bit of a stretch? It seems every time I hear that line it's just another way of saying, "My **** died so that you should think the way I do".
The man made a personal choice to refuse treatment and refuse medication. I have little problem with that. The result is that he killed someone, owing in part to his disorder, and in part to his decision to refuse treatment. He needs to be held responsible for that. The solution, as I see it, is to incarcerate him in a medical facility in perpetuity until such time as he is willing to commit to treatment. At that point, he begins his treatment, and is monitored closely (blood test?) so as to ensure he stays on his medication. Any violation puts him back inside, as he has proven to be a dangerous offender when unmedicated.
The man made a personal choice to refuse treatment and refuse medication. I have little problem with that. The result is that he killed someone, owing in part to his disorder, and in part to his decision to refuse treatment. He needs to be held responsible for that. The solution, as I see it, is to incarcerate him in a medical facility in perpetuity until such time as he is willing to commit to treatment. At that point, he begins his treatment, and is monitored closely (blood test?) so as to ensure he stays on his medication. Any violation puts him back inside, as he has proven to be a dangerous offender when unmedicated.
I agree with the bolded, what I'm less sure of is the idea that he is completely responsible for his horrible decision...but I'm also not sure that I like the idea of declaring those with this condition 'incompetent to make these decisions' outright...which would be the next step.
I know we have some mental health workers on the site...I wish they'd chime in and give us some facts (not personal pref....FACTS)
I agree with the bolded, what I'm less sure of is the idea that he is completely responsible for his horrible decision
He's more responsible for making the conscious decision to go off his meds than he is for the murder itself..
I don't get it. If the opinion is that a person owns thier body and what can go in it, and the gov't isn't allowed to screw around with you.. then isn't there a logical implication that when you are told you need meds and don't take them, you are even more responsible for your actions than you were before?
If there isn't a higher degree of responsibilty assigned when you choose actions that end up wrong, then where is the incentive to do right?
Edit #1: How is this any different that the guy with aids who kept sleeping with chicks unprotected and lied about it? He's being charged with murder and facing a ton of time....
Commendable for your families sacrifice but don't you think this line of thinking is a bit of a stretch? It seems every time I hear that line it's just another way of saying, "My **** died so that you should think the way I do".
Sorry that was a knee jerk to the rememberance day remark .
But on reflection it holds somewhat true. Go watch No Country for Old Men if you haven't already. "You can't help but compare yourself to the Old Timers."
You don't have to think my way. But I for one think this was an injustice.
Wiki manic depression. It will funnel you into Bipolar Disorder because the former is an antiquated term for the same diagnosis.
My wife runs a 22 bed ward in one of the biggest Psychiatric hospitals in Ontario. For 10 years she worked on an admitting ward dealing with all diagnosis that fall under the Psych umbrella. She currently works on a psychosis ward dealing with mostly schizophrenia. I have learned a fair amount through osmosis.
She always told me that her favorite clients to be around were Bipolar disorder patients. They were extremely fun because of their manic episodes and endless energy. They talk and laugh and dance and screw like it is their last day on earth. She claims that almost all of them are 100% normal when they are on their medication and that almost all of them will go off their medication after a certain period of time.
They crave the high that they get when they are off the meds. It is addictive just like a drug addict craves drugs. They have no worries, no stress, just extreme euphoria and endless energy. I have to admit that it sounds like a pretty attractive way to spend your days.
Unfortunately some of these patients suffer psychotic breaks during their manic episodes. I would assume that is what our patient in question was going through at the time he took his co-workers life. Most Bipolar people are not violent.
My point is this. I make choices in my life and those choices affect myself and they affect others. If I consume drugs or alcohol and alter my state of mind I am responsible for my actions even when my decision making ability is diminished.
If an individual requires drugs to maintain an acceptable level of decision making ability but chooses to go off their medication why should they not be responsible?
Spades are spades...she's probably a nurse, and you- the husband of a nurse...
if I wanted advice on being a doctor's flunky or therapeutic touch...
(Kidding.. my Mom's a nurse and I took nursing in college...much respect for them!)
Two points: We're overlooking the important bit THEY ARE PRONE TO GOING OFF THE MEDS SEEKING A HIGH this means that the meds are not doing the complete job we'd like them to do...which is to get rid of the symptoms of the mental illness.
So we are again dealing with a mentally ill person, and as such the standard of responsibility needs to be explored.
Point #2...he said psychotic break...Mark and Mario where ever you are..take a shot.
Two points: We're overlooking the important bit THEY ARE PRONE TO GOING OFF THE MEDS SEEKING A HIGH this means that the meds are not doing the complete job we'd like them to do...which is to get rid of the symptoms of the mental illness.
So we are again dealing with a mentally ill person, and as such the standard of responsibility needs to be explored.
The parallel still exists. Alcoholics and drug addicts are PRONE to relapses as well but are legally responsible for their actions while under the influence. They are also treated under addictions arm of the mental health umbrella.
My position is that there seems to be a double standard here and that our legal system is letting us down. This person made an irresponsible decision about their own treatment that led to a loss of life. I don't think a slap on the wrist is appropriate.
I agree that a slap on the wrist is not appropriate...
I just don't see how slapping for any duration will yield our mutual goal of safety..I think the best option seems to be a life in a medical institution. (barring some major medical break throughs that eliminate the possibility of this happening again)
Side Question: Do you think it is fair that this mentally unwell person got MORE time than some donk who gets drunk and hits/kills someone with their car?
Canadian prisoner, too fat for cell, released early
OTTAWA (Reuters) – Canadian prison authorities were forced to release a 450-pound (205 kg) drug gang member this week because he was too large for his cell, the Journal de Montreal newspaper reported on Wednesday.
Michel Lapointe -- known as Big Mike -- was arrested in September 2006 and received a five-year sentence in May this year. The paper said he could not fit on the chair in his Montreal prison cell and when he went to bed, his body protruded six inches on either side.
A letter from the authorities to Lapointe said: "You have been detained for more than 25 months and your prison conditions are difficult because of your health".
The authorities also cited the refusal of two other facilities to accept the 37-year-old. He was freed late on Tuesday.
"I'm going to have a proper bed and finally have a chair I can sit in," he told the paper outside the prison. "I want a normal life. I've done some stupid things and I've paid for them," he said.
Comments
I haven't read the link yet...I'd just like to say how hilarious your timing is...Remembrance day?
In first! {sets up lawn chair}
On the surface this appears to be another way in which Canada fails those in ill mental health.
1 day in jail is ridiculous, but a life time of psychiatric care in a secure facility is not.
As long as he is off the streets for life I am fine with him getting help instead of jail. But he turned down the mental health help it seems by pleading guilty. He only has to do 6 years and then can stay off his meds again.
My Grandfather didn't fight for years in the war and lose his brother to it in order for someone to go off his meds, kill someone and only get his wrist slapped.
I don't hate this Country. There are many things about Western society that I do hate. One of the biggest is the 'it's not my fault' movement.
Most are capable of functioning at a very high level in society when they take their meds. Most do not like taking their meds. It evens them out and takes away their ability to feel HIGH. Who doesn't want to stay HIGH.
This guy was diagnosed. He was treated. He chose as an individual to go off his meds and this resulted in him taking a life.
I am all for deeming him responsible for his actions and giving him a real sentence.
the person who makes that choice..whether currently medicated or not, clearly is not thinking straight and needs our help.
wat?
He also then chose 6 years in prison vs. getting the metal help he needs. This plea forces no treatment on him at all it seems.
Fuck him. He is responsible for his life. If he continues to make poor choices he should be held accountable... or at least keep him away from the people I love.
Pretty much the same as any normal Joe making a decision to take a drug and alter their own state and then subjecting themselves to intense lows and putting people around them at risk.
Or are these people incompetent too?
Commendable for your families sacrifice but don't you think this line of thinking is a bit of a stretch? It seems every time I hear that line it's just another way of saying, "My **** died so that you should think the way I do".
I agree with the bolded, what I'm less sure of is the idea that he is completely responsible for his horrible decision...but I'm also not sure that I like the idea of declaring those with this condition 'incompetent to make these decisions' outright...which would be the next step.
I know we have some mental health workers on the site...I wish they'd chime in and give us some facts (not personal pref....FACTS)
He's more responsible for making the conscious decision to go off his meds than he is for the murder itself..
I don't get it. If the opinion is that a person owns thier body and what can go in it, and the gov't isn't allowed to screw around with you.. then isn't there a logical implication that when you are told you need meds and don't take them, you are even more responsible for your actions than you were before?
If there isn't a higher degree of responsibilty assigned when you choose actions that end up wrong, then where is the incentive to do right?
Edit #1: How is this any different that the guy with aids who kept sleeping with chicks unprotected and lied about it? He's being charged with murder and facing a ton of time....
Oh the world today.
Sorry that was a knee jerk to the rememberance day remark
But on reflection it holds somewhat true. Go watch No Country for Old Men if you haven't already. "You can't help but compare yourself to the Old Timers."
You don't have to think my way. But I for one think this was an injustice.
Wiki manic depression. It will funnel you into Bipolar Disorder because the former is an antiquated term for the same diagnosis.
My wife runs a 22 bed ward in one of the biggest Psychiatric hospitals in Ontario. For 10 years she worked on an admitting ward dealing with all diagnosis that fall under the Psych umbrella. She currently works on a psychosis ward dealing with mostly schizophrenia. I have learned a fair amount through osmosis.
She always told me that her favorite clients to be around were Bipolar disorder patients. They were extremely fun because of their manic episodes and endless energy. They talk and laugh and dance and screw like it is their last day on earth. She claims that almost all of them are 100% normal when they are on their medication and that almost all of them will go off their medication after a certain period of time.
They crave the high that they get when they are off the meds. It is addictive just like a drug addict craves drugs. They have no worries, no stress, just extreme euphoria and endless energy. I have to admit that it sounds like a pretty attractive way to spend your days.
Unfortunately some of these patients suffer psychotic breaks during their manic episodes. I would assume that is what our patient in question was going through at the time he took his co-workers life. Most Bipolar people are not violent.
My point is this. I make choices in my life and those choices affect myself and they affect others. If I consume drugs or alcohol and alter my state of mind I am responsible for my actions even when my decision making ability is diminished.
If an individual requires drugs to maintain an acceptable level of decision making ability but chooses to go off their medication why should they not be responsible?
if I wanted advice on being a doctor's flunky or therapeutic touch...
(Kidding.. my Mom's a nurse and I took nursing in college...much respect for them!)
Two points: We're overlooking the important bit THEY ARE PRONE TO GOING OFF THE MEDS SEEKING A HIGH this means that the meds are not doing the complete job we'd like them to do...which is to get rid of the symptoms of the mental illness.
So we are again dealing with a mentally ill person, and as such the standard of responsibility needs to be explored.
Point #2...he said psychotic break...Mark and Mario where ever you are..take a shot.
The parallel still exists. Alcoholics and drug addicts are PRONE to relapses as well but are legally responsible for their actions while under the influence. They are also treated under addictions arm of the mental health umbrella.
My position is that there seems to be a double standard here and that our legal system is letting us down. This person made an irresponsible decision about their own treatment that led to a loss of life. I don't think a slap on the wrist is appropriate.
I just don't see how slapping for any duration will yield our mutual goal of safety..I think the best option seems to be a life in a medical institution. (barring some major medical break throughs that eliminate the possibility of this happening again)
Side Question: Do you think it is fair that this mentally unwell person got MORE time than some donk who gets drunk and hits/kills someone with their car?
Because he did.
Drunk<Sick