Why check the flop and bet the turn? If you are afraid of the ace on the flop then you should be afraid of it on the turn. Either lead out on the flop and find out where you are at or check it down the whole way.
if you're going to bet the turn, (and I think it is fine to do that a decent % of the time) I like choosing a different bigger amount..betting less than you did preflop is just pissing away chips imo.
at this level though, I'm usually just poking at it on the flop...1/2 to 2/3 pot.
betting 3500 on the river is a HUGE mistake. I think I can argue both check/call and check/fold as played...but I can't imagine what a bet is going to accomplish there?
i'd cbet here unless this guy has shown an ability to flat call steal (he's got enough chips to call a flop bet and see what you do on the turn). your turn bet screams weakness and if he's a crafty player there's a decent chance you got raised with air on the river. i know i woulda raised with air
I think a cbet to rep the A would have been a better choice, but seeing as you decided to delay it, I'd have definetly made it bigger (2/3 pot or so). After the turn call, my line is check/call or check fold (depending on the bet size)
Yeah, I def would prefer betting the flop here. He has to be just as afraid of the A as you are unless he's got it. 2/3 pot as the flop is fairly coordinated. Betting the turn (delayed cbet) is ok as I think his call pre and check behind you on the flop indicate that he has at best small pockets and wants to showdown cheap (he could've checked behind you to get a free card - most people would bet a draw when a preflop aggressor gives up the lead on the flop I think though). The turn bet you made is way too small (needs to be about 2/3 pot), and your river bet, as Kristy said, is basically pissing chips away. Probably would have check folded or check called (if he kept it cheap).
A small problem with a cbet here as I indicated earlier is that your situation is slightly unfavourable because a much larger stack has got position on you. If he calls your flop bet you'll have no idea where you are (even though you could still be crushing him!), and you'll likely give up the lead on the turn at which time he'll basically bet anything.
Why check the flop and bet the turn? If you are afraid of the ace on the flop then you should be afraid of it on the turn. Either lead out on the flop and find out where you are at or check it down the whole way.
Prophet 22
Betting the flop has virtually no value. You actually fold out all of the hands that you beat and get calls from only hands that you are behind.
Betting the turn is fine.
Your river bet is a blocker and looks exactly like a blocker but when he min raises you it really looks like a suck-bet and barring any reads to the contrary I think you have to fold. I am more likely to check/call the river. You will pick off enough bluffs with that line to give it value.
If he calls your flop bet you'll have no idea where you are
The stronger flop c-bet (2/3rds) leaves us with roughly pot back if called...
for this reason I don't think that we have to worry that much about the big stack tagging along on junk or as a move since we do not have an obvious fold available with that much invested.
If the big stack thought we were weak and wanted to make a move- he'd shove the flop..if he just calls we're smoked imo.
Betting the flop has virtually no value. You actually fold out all of the hands that you beat and get calls from only hands that you are behind.
Betting the turn is fine.
You sneaked in while I was grabbing a coffee...
I agree the betting the turn/getting to showdown cheaply is fine a significant % of the time, but the reason why I think betting the flop is slightly better is because at this level I think it is generally advisable to just be poking at loads of pots..which is irrespective of the strength our hand held pf or may hold now.
Win when you're strong and win when they're weak. The pf call of our opponent and the arrival of the ace turns this hand into virtually any other junk I might play.. and because this is not a 'win when I'm strong' My priority is not looking to extract value anymore, but there is still a decent (imo better) shot at winning when they're weak.
if you're going to bet the turn, (and I think it is fine to do that a decent % of the time) I like choosing a different bigger amount..betting less than you did preflop is just pissing away chips imo.
at this level though, I'm usually just poking at it on the flop...1/2 to 2/3 pot.
betting 3500 on the river is a HUGE mistake. I think I can argue both check/call and check/fold as played...but I can't imagine what a bet is going to accomplish there?
I concur, plus you're out of position, which sucks.
I agree the betting the turn/getting to showdown cheaply is fine a significant % of the time, but the reason why I think betting the flop is slightly better is because at this level I think it is generally advisable to just be poking at loads of pots..which is irrespective of the strength our hand held pf or may hold now.
Win when you're strong and win when they're weak. The pf call of our opponent and the arrival of the ace turns this hand into virtually any other junk I might play.. and because this is not a 'win when I'm strong' My priority is not looking to extract value anymore, but there is still a decent (imo better) shot at winning when they're weak.
thoughts?
I agree with your overall strategy for a low limit MTT. I just don't think it overrides the situational factors in the hand we are currently involved in.
In a small $$ MTT every donk who flats Ax pre-flop is pretty much betting this flop to see if his kicker is any good. When he checks behind on the flop we can reliably bet the turn for value from the smaller PP that villain may be holding.
JT just got there and any sets or two pairs beat us but we are still ahead of his range so we bet here for two reasons:
Betting the flop has virtually no value. You actually fold out all of the hands that you beat and get calls from only hands that you are behind.
Betting the turn is fine.
Your river bet is a blocker and looks exactly like a blocker but when he min raises you it really looks like a suck-bet and barring any reads to the contrary I think you have to fold. I am more likely to check/call the river. You will pick off enough bluffs with that line to give it value.
Edit: LOL Swank Poker
I don't know bro. I think there is value in betting the flop. It's true that most hands you're beating will fold, but what's wrong with that? That's a pot that can add significantly to our stack plus I'm OOP and would rather just end the hand early. I don't agree that all hands that call have you beat either (although it really depends on how snugly villain has been playing and his stack size). I don't really like betting the turn after checking the flop. When a preflop raiser checks a coordinated flop with an A on it to me and then bets the turn I'm putting him on a small pair, calling his turn bet, and jamming it up his ass on the river (figuratively of course) I do totally agree that a river check call has value.
I agree with your overall strategy for a low limit MTT. I just don't think it overrides the situational factors in the hand we are currently involved in.
In a small $$ MTT every donk who flats Ax pre-flop is pretty much betting this flop to see if his kicker is any good. When he checks behind on the flop we can reliably bet the turn for value from the smaller PP that villain may be holding.
JT just got there and any sets or two pairs beat us but we are still ahead of his range so we bet here for two reasons:
1. For value.
2. To protect our vulnerable hand.
You just said that betting the flop has no value because hands we have beat (small pp) will fold out, but then you went on to give extracting value from a small pp as a good reason to bet the turn?
Sorry, I wasn't clear...I 100% believe- and suggested earlier that as played you should bet the turn...no question there.
What I'm looking for is discussion of whether one should bet the flop or checks the flop bet the turn as the favoured choice..
I'd have to crunch some numbers but my gut feeling is that betting the flop is better. I think a preflop raiser checking a coordinated flop with an A on it, and then betting the turn is weak. I'm calling his turn bet and forcing him to a serious decision on the river (especially if the turn was a scare).
The stronger flop c-bet (2/3rds) leaves us with roughly pot back if called...
for this reason I don't think that we have to worry that much about the big stack tagging along on junk or as a move since we do not have an obvious fold available with that much invested.
If the big stack thought we were weak and wanted to make a move- he'd shove the flop..if he just calls we're smoked imo.
You're right! I'm such a tool. I was only looking at his stack size. I wasn't really paying attention to the pot size relative to our remaining stack. Villain must know that after we bet the flop he has no fold equity. He's def not calling a flop bet to move on the turn. If he calls the flop we're beat (or at the very least uncomfortable)! I feel stupid
Mega apologies to Kristy and cadillac. My only defense is that I find it much easier to sit at a table and spot these things.
You just said that betting the flop has no value because hands we have beat (small pp) will fold out, but then you went on to give extracting value from a small pp as a good reason to bet the turn?
ahhh yes........
Lets say villain has QQ, JJ, TT, T9, T8, A9, or 66, 55.......
We check the flop and his hand can't stand check-raise so he checks behind. He will also be significantly discounting that we have an Ace in our hand. If we lead out on the turn for half to 3/4's of the pot we will very likely get calls from those hands I listed above because it is a controlled pot and my line looks weak.
Sorry, I wasn't clear...I 100% believe- and suggested earlier that as played you should bet the turn...no question there.
What I'm looking for is discussion of whether one should bet the flop or checks the flop bet the turn as the favoured choice..
There is no standard play here in my opinion. We should make this decision based on several factors:
1. Board texture.
2. Strength of our holding.
3. Opponents tendencies
4. Position
The significant factor in this hand based on the fact that we have no read on our opponent is that we have the best possible PP that hasn't improved. By checking the flop we give a lot of worse hands a chance to put more money in the pot.
If I held TT on the same board I would likely fire at the flop because my hand is more vulnerable to over cards so I don't want to give a free card and I am happy to rep the A. Since I am the PFR so I should have a fair amount of fold equity.
Lets say villain has QQ, JJ, TT, T9, T8, A9, or 66, 55.......
We check the flop and his hand can't stand check-raise so he checks behind. He will also be significantly discounting that we have an Ace in our hand. If we lead out on the turn for half to 3/4's of the pot we will very likely get calls from those hands I listed above because it is a controlled pot and my line looks weak.
I ran into almost the same situation twice yesterday.
First one was with QQ.
I raised pre flop - probably 3xBB - It was later in the tournament, so BB was probably about 400.
I checked the flop because there was an A. The other guy checked.
So, I bet the turn, but I bet a decent amount (Half the pot I believe). He took a long time and called. There was a flush and straight draw out there.
The turn came - A - no help to flush or straights. I figured he didn't have an A and he was probably going to fold, so I put in a pot sized bet. This pretty much had me all-in. He re-raised me and I should have folded. He turned over pocket A's.
So, I could see the guy holding pocket A's trying to trap.
My next hand was KK. I went all-in pre flop (I was short stacked, but my stack was still decent enough to scare most players out).
I got called by pocket 5's. He hit his set on the river! Bastard!!!
Either way, the villian called the pre-flop raise, so he probably has at least a low pocket pair. That 5 could have been the same situation! Maybe he made his set! You have 5, 7, 8 and 9's - all set mining cards. A set is likely here. If he made his set on the flop, he might want to check to hope you hit a pair on the turn or tried to bluff. If he hit on the turn, he wants you to bet on the river so he can go over top of you. Same as if he hit on the flop. He wants to trap you.
I guess you would have to figure how likely it is that he would be bluffing in this situation.
Either way, you are probably going to call and see what he was doing. Find out what his hand was and use that information later. There is a chance that he's trying to bluff your bluff, because it really does look like you are bluffing.
A flop bet would have been good here to get a decent read for sure. It would have saved you some chips. If he was ahead on the flop, he probably would have re-raised. If he had a medium pair or pocket pair, he may call, if he's loose. He could have been on a draw too and called. If he had nothing, he would have folded. You could have used that info to make your decision later.
I ran into almost the same situation twice yesterday.
First one was with QQ.
I raised pre flop - probably 3xBB - It was later in the tournament, so BB was probably about 400.
I checked the flop because there was an A. The other guy checked.
So, I bet the turn, but I bet a decent amount (Half the pot I believe). He took a long time and called. There was a flush and straight draw out there.
The turn came - A - no help to flush or straights. I figured he didn't have an A and he was probably going to fold, so I put in a pot sized bet. This pretty much had me all-in. He re-raised me and I should have folded. He turned over pocket A's.
So, I could see the guy holding pocket A's trying to trap.
My next hand was KK. I went all-in pre flop (I was short stacked, but my stack was still decent enough to scare most players out).
I got called by pocket 5's. He hit his set on the river! Bastard!!!
Either way, the villian called the pre-flop raise, so he probably has at least a low pocket pair. That 5 could have been the same situation! Maybe he made his set! You have 5, 7, 8 and 9's - all set mining cards. A set is likely here. If he made his set on the flop, he might want to check to hope you hit a pair on the turn or tried to bluff. If he hit on the turn, he wants you to bet on the river so he can go over top of you. Same as if he hit on the flop. He wants to trap you.
I guess you would have to figure how likely it is that he would be bluffing in this situation.
Either way, you are probably going to call and see what he was doing. Find out what his hand was and use that information later. There is a chance that he's trying to bluff your bluff, because it really does look like you are bluffing.
A flop bet would have been good here to get a decent read for sure. It would have saved you some chips. If he was ahead on the flop, he probably would have re-raised. If he had a medium pair or pocket pair, he may call, if he's loose. He could have been on a draw too and called. If he had nothing, he would have folded. You could have used that info to make your decision later.
You give an example where you run into the extreme top of our opponents range. Yes, it happens but only a small percentage of the time. If you are about to base your standard play on these types of situations you will always be scared money and you will never make any.
Choose your lines and your plays based on how you fare against the entire range of hands that your opponent may be holding. This is what makes you profit in poker.
And Jesus Christ people. Is there really only a couple of people here that realize you are turning a big hand like KK into a bluff when you bet this flop?
For the record I like Check the flop. Lead the turn. Check/call the river in this hand.
And Jesus Christ people. Is there really only a couple of people here that realize you are turning a big hand like KK into a bluff when you bet this flop?
I think I'm one of the 'couple people' since I discussed this exact idea like ten posts ago...
It is the fact that we have KK that ups the likelihood of checking the flop and betting the turn to 'debatable' but I think there are strong arguments for both camps..and when it is close I opt for the one NOT smacking of FPS
It is the fact that we have KK that ups the likelihood of checking the flop and betting the turn to 'debatable' but I think there are strong arguments for both camps..and when it is close I opt for the one NOT smacking of FPS
Offering solely hand-specific advice is stupid since you'll likely never be in the exact same position again.
What these discussions should yield are trends and approaches.
The normal approach with any decent pf hand is to c-bet the flop 2/3+ of the time.
The specifics of this hand do tweak the likelihoods a bit...to bring it closer to 50% bet the flop, 50% check flop/bet turn and thus makes it 'debatable'.
But I still think I lean towards betting the flop, particularly given all the additional information...like level at which we are playing, stack size etc.
Offering solely hand-specific advice is stupid since you'll likely never be in the exact same position again.
What these discussions should yield are trends and approaches.
The normal approach with any decent pf hand is to c-bet the flop 2/3+ of the time.
The specifics of this hand do tweak the likelihoods a bit...to bring it closer to 50% bet the flop, 50% check flop/bet turn and thus makes it 'debatable'.
But I still think I lean towards betting the flop, particularly given all the additional information...like level at which we are playing, stack size etc.
clearer?
Much.
Offering hand specific advice is not stupid IMO. When the advice is clear and weighs all factors involved in the hand it gives people a look at the thought process involved in making an intelligent decision. Hopefully from here they can learn what goes into making a good decision and from there they can start making good decisions for themselves.
As well these situations will happen again and again and again. Like seriously, I have KK, QQ, JJ and have about 20BB. I raise in MP and get called by the CO or the button. Flop comes A and two undercards. How do I proceed? This is so standard and will happen a million times if we play with any regularity. Why would we not discuss the merits of our available plays here?
You should have a damn good idea of what your opponents range of hands is here and what is the most profitable play. If your standard play is to bet 1/2 the pot and then give up on the hand when called you are lighting money on fire. A lot of players will peel the flop with ATC and see if you have the balls to fire a second barrel.
first off, let's establish the legality of this tournament. where is the AGCO/OLG approved license?
wait for a second while i get down off my high horse.
as played, this should be an easy fold. i would not be surprised to see villain turn over A6s or JTs. maybe even 66. i doubt he plays a set or other PP in a similar fashion. if he is bluffing you then kudos to him for outplaying you. i figure you blew off at least 2000 more chips than necessary.
to settle the check/bet flop, bet/check/fold turn or river question, answer these first:
how should the villain interpret dingleberry's check on a draw heavy flop? then what should he think about a weak bet on an even heavier drawing turn? what sort of range would he put dingleberry on?
how should dingleberry interpret villain's check behind and call? then what about the min-raise? what sort of range can dingleberry put villain on?
should dingleberry be happy to add 20+% to his stack by folding out a speculative hand on the flop or potentially risk disaster by trying to get some value from weaker hands? how much extra value can dingleberry realistically get?
if a flop bet gets raised, what should dingleberry do?
if dingleberry gets smooth called or checked behind, how many scare cards can come on the turn or river?
can dingleberry pull off the money shot?
i believe these lead to the preferred (perhaps NOT perfect) action.
You give an example where you run into the extreme top of our opponents range. Yes, it happens but only a small percentage of the time. If you are about to base your standard play on these types of situations you will always be scared money and you will never make any.
Choose your lines and your plays based on how you fare against the entire range of hands that your opponent may be holding. This is what makes you profit in poker.
And Jesus Christ people. Is there really only a couple of people here that realize you are turning a big hand like KK into a bluff when you bet this flop?
For the record I like Check the flop. Lead the turn. Check/call the river in this hand.
You should re-read my post I think. When did I say KK was a bluff?
I said "There is a chance that he's trying to bluff your bluff, because it really does look like you are bluffing."
Note "because it really does look like you are bluffing" - That's how he's seeing it.
I also did give a specific example, yes. It was extreme, of course. Will it happen again? Not likely. Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't base any of what I feel should be done in this situation on my situation and I would play my hand very similar to the way I played it, except I would bet the flop for a feeler next time.
I also did mention a range of hands. Here:
"Either way, the villian called the pre-flop raise, so he probably has at least a low pocket pair. That 5 could have been the same situation! Maybe he made his set! You have 5, 7, 8 and 9's - all set mining cards. A set is likely here. If he made his set on the flop, he might want to check to hope you hit a pair on the turn or tried to bluff. If he hit on the turn, he wants you to bet on the river so he can go over top of you. Same as if he hit on the flop. He wants to trap you."
The only thing I would change there is "A set is likely here" to "A set is very possible here". Again, due to the set mining board. He let him see a free turn card and may have hit the set! On second look, he could easily have 56 or 66 or TJ here as well.
Offering hand specific advice is not stupid IMO. When the advice is clear and weighs all factors involved in the hand it gives people a look at the thought process involved in making an intelligent decision. Hopefully from here they can learn what goes into making a good decision and from there they can start making good decisions for themselves.
As well these situations will happen again and again and again. Like seriously, I have KK, QQ, JJ and have about 20BB. I raise in MP and get called by the CO or the button. Flop comes A and two undercards. How do I proceed? This is so standard and will happen a million times if we play with any regularity. Why would we not discuss the merits of our available plays here?
You should have a damn good idea of what your opponents range of hands is here and what is the most profitable play. If your standard play is to bet 1/2 the pot and then give up on the hand when called you are lighting money on fire. A lot of players will peel the flop with ATC and see if you have the balls to fire a second barrel.
I like this post. Especially the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.
I say always bet the flop to gain information. Then, 3/4 bet the turn to see what the guy has. If he calls and is known to not be a full donk, you might want to run.
The question is, if he calls the turn, what do you do on the river? You don't want to look weak, but with calling a pre-flop raise and calling the large turn bet, you can put him on a pretty good hand.
Are we trying to get the guy to fold here?
Or, should we be putting in a bit less - an amount we feel comfortable with - hoping that he calls all the way to the river?
Am I wrong on this, or do we want to represent the A with the best kicker?
I feel after this thread, I would probably bet the flop, bet the turn, like I said, then bet the river if he doesn't push back. If he calls, I either lose or win. If he goes over top of me, I fold, depending on the player and the amount. He may just have pocket T's and is hoping to take the pot.
Offering hand specific advice is not stupid IMO. When the advice is clear and weighs all factors involved in the hand it gives people a look at the thought process involved in making an intelligent decision. Hopefully from here they can learn what goes into making a good decision and from there they can start making good decisions for themselves.
As well these situations will happen again and again and again. Like seriously, I have KK, QQ, JJ and have about 20BB. I raise in MP and get called by the CO or the button. Flop comes A and two undercards. How do I proceed? This is so standard and will happen a million times if we play with any regularity. Why would we not discuss the merits of our available plays here?
You should have a damn good idea of what your opponents range of hands is here and what is the most profitable play. If your standard play is to bet 1/2 the pot and then give up on the hand when called you are lighting money on fire. A lot of players will peel the flop with ATC and see if you have the balls to fire a second barrel.
As well these situations will happen again and again and again.
and here you did not understand..No claims as to whether that's my fault for being unclear or you're busy with something else and not paying full attention to the thread.
I don't think that we have to worry that much about the big stack tagging along on junk or as a move since we do not have an obvious fold available with that much invested.
This is where you teeter on being guilty of fancy-play-syndrome, as I tried to suggest in my earlier muddled post.
Comments
Prophet 22
at this level though, I'm usually just poking at it on the flop...1/2 to 2/3 pot.
betting 3500 on the river is a HUGE mistake. I think I can argue both check/call and check/fold as played...but I can't imagine what a bet is going to accomplish there?
Why did you bet the river?
Do you want to play a big pot wrt your stack size with a pair above middle pair?
Why not check the river?
A small problem with a cbet here as I indicated earlier is that your situation is slightly unfavourable because a much larger stack has got position on you. If he calls your flop bet you'll have no idea where you are (even though you could still be crushing him!), and you'll likely give up the lead on the turn at which time he'll basically bet anything.
Betting the flop has virtually no value. You actually fold out all of the hands that you beat and get calls from only hands that you are behind.
Betting the turn is fine.
Your river bet is a blocker and looks exactly like a blocker but when he min raises you it really looks like a suck-bet and barring any reads to the contrary I think you have to fold. I am more likely to check/call the river. You will pick off enough bluffs with that line to give it value.
Edit: LOL Swank Poker
The stronger flop c-bet (2/3rds) leaves us with roughly pot back if called...
for this reason I don't think that we have to worry that much about the big stack tagging along on junk or as a move since we do not have an obvious fold available with that much invested.
If the big stack thought we were weak and wanted to make a move- he'd shove the flop..if he just calls we're smoked imo.
You sneaked in while I was grabbing a coffee...
I agree the betting the turn/getting to showdown cheaply is fine a significant % of the time, but the reason why I think betting the flop is slightly better is because at this level I think it is generally advisable to just be poking at loads of pots..which is irrespective of the strength our hand held pf or may hold now.
Win when you're strong and win when they're weak. The pf call of our opponent and the arrival of the ace turns this hand into virtually any other junk I might play.. and because this is not a 'win when I'm strong' My priority is not looking to extract value anymore, but there is still a decent (imo better) shot at winning when they're weak.
thoughts?
I concur, plus you're out of position, which sucks.
I agree with your overall strategy for a low limit MTT. I just don't think it overrides the situational factors in the hand we are currently involved in.
In a small $$ MTT every donk who flats Ax pre-flop is pretty much betting this flop to see if his kicker is any good. When he checks behind on the flop we can reliably bet the turn for value from the smaller PP that villain may be holding.
JT just got there and any sets or two pairs beat us but we are still ahead of his range so we bet here for two reasons:
1. For value.
2. To protect our vulnerable hand.
I don't know bro. I think there is value in betting the flop. It's true that most hands you're beating will fold, but what's wrong with that? That's a pot that can add significantly to our stack plus I'm OOP and would rather just end the hand early. I don't agree that all hands that call have you beat either (although it really depends on how snugly villain has been playing and his stack size). I don't really like betting the turn after checking the flop. When a preflop raiser checks a coordinated flop with an A on it to me and then bets the turn I'm putting him on a small pair, calling his turn bet, and jamming it up his ass on the river (figuratively of course)
Sorry, I wasn't clear...I 100% believe- and suggested earlier that as played you should bet the turn...no question there.
What I'm looking for is discussion of whether one should bet the flop or checks the flop bet the turn as the favoured choice..
You just said that betting the flop has no value because hands we have beat (small pp) will fold out, but then you went on to give extracting value from a small pp as a good reason to bet the turn?
I'd have to crunch some numbers but my gut feeling is that betting the flop is better. I think a preflop raiser checking a coordinated flop with an A on it, and then betting the turn is weak. I'm calling his turn bet and forcing him to a serious decision on the river (especially if the turn was a scare).
You're right! I'm such a tool. I was only looking at his stack size. I wasn't really paying attention to the pot size relative to our remaining stack. Villain must know that after we bet the flop he has no fold equity. He's def not calling a flop bet to move on the turn. If he calls the flop we're beat (or at the very least uncomfortable)! I feel stupid
Mega apologies to Kristy and cadillac. My only defense is that I find it much easier to sit at a table and spot these things.
ahhh yes........
Lets say villain has QQ, JJ, TT, T9, T8, A9, or 66, 55.......
We check the flop and his hand can't stand check-raise so he checks behind. He will also be significantly discounting that we have an Ace in our hand. If we lead out on the turn for half to 3/4's of the pot we will very likely get calls from those hands I listed above because it is a controlled pot and my line looks weak.
There is no standard play here in my opinion. We should make this decision based on several factors:
1. Board texture.
2. Strength of our holding.
3. Opponents tendencies
4. Position
The significant factor in this hand based on the fact that we have no read on our opponent is that we have the best possible PP that hasn't improved. By checking the flop we give a lot of worse hands a chance to put more money in the pot.
If I held TT on the same board I would likely fire at the flop because my hand is more vulnerable to over cards so I don't want to give a free card and I am happy to rep the A. Since I am the PFR so I should have a fair amount of fold equity.
I see. Sweet
First one was with QQ.
I raised pre flop - probably 3xBB - It was later in the tournament, so BB was probably about 400.
I checked the flop because there was an A. The other guy checked.
So, I bet the turn, but I bet a decent amount (Half the pot I believe). He took a long time and called. There was a flush and straight draw out there.
The turn came - A - no help to flush or straights. I figured he didn't have an A and he was probably going to fold, so I put in a pot sized bet. This pretty much had me all-in. He re-raised me and I should have folded. He turned over pocket A's.
So, I could see the guy holding pocket A's trying to trap.
My next hand was KK. I went all-in pre flop (I was short stacked, but my stack was still decent enough to scare most players out).
I got called by pocket 5's. He hit his set on the river! Bastard!!!
Either way, the villian called the pre-flop raise, so he probably has at least a low pocket pair. That 5 could have been the same situation! Maybe he made his set! You have 5, 7, 8 and 9's - all set mining cards. A set is likely here. If he made his set on the flop, he might want to check to hope you hit a pair on the turn or tried to bluff. If he hit on the turn, he wants you to bet on the river so he can go over top of you. Same as if he hit on the flop. He wants to trap you.
I guess you would have to figure how likely it is that he would be bluffing in this situation.
Either way, you are probably going to call and see what he was doing. Find out what his hand was and use that information later. There is a chance that he's trying to bluff your bluff, because it really does look like you are bluffing.
A flop bet would have been good here to get a decent read for sure. It would have saved you some chips. If he was ahead on the flop, he probably would have re-raised. If he had a medium pair or pocket pair, he may call, if he's loose. He could have been on a draw too and called. If he had nothing, he would have folded. You could have used that info to make your decision later.
You give an example where you run into the extreme top of our opponents range. Yes, it happens but only a small percentage of the time. If you are about to base your standard play on these types of situations you will always be scared money and you will never make any.
Choose your lines and your plays based on how you fare against the entire range of hands that your opponent may be holding. This is what makes you profit in poker.
And Jesus Christ people. Is there really only a couple of people here that realize you are turning a big hand like KK into a bluff when you bet this flop?
For the record I like Check the flop. Lead the turn. Check/call the river in this hand.
I think I'm one of the 'couple people' since I discussed this exact idea like ten posts ago...
It is the fact that we have KK that ups the likelihood of checking the flop and betting the turn to 'debatable' but I think there are strong arguments for both camps..and when it is close I opt for the one NOT smacking of FPS
True that.
Can someone translate this to English please.
I'm under-caffeinated.
Offering solely hand-specific advice is stupid since you'll likely never be in the exact same position again.
What these discussions should yield are trends and approaches.
The normal approach with any decent pf hand is to c-bet the flop 2/3+ of the time.
The specifics of this hand do tweak the likelihoods a bit...to bring it closer to 50% bet the flop, 50% check flop/bet turn and thus makes it 'debatable'.
But I still think I lean towards betting the flop, particularly given all the additional information...like level at which we are playing, stack size etc.
clearer?
Much.
Offering hand specific advice is not stupid IMO. When the advice is clear and weighs all factors involved in the hand it gives people a look at the thought process involved in making an intelligent decision. Hopefully from here they can learn what goes into making a good decision and from there they can start making good decisions for themselves.
As well these situations will happen again and again and again. Like seriously, I have KK, QQ, JJ and have about 20BB. I raise in MP and get called by the CO or the button. Flop comes A and two undercards. How do I proceed? This is so standard and will happen a million times if we play with any regularity. Why would we not discuss the merits of our available plays here?
You should have a damn good idea of what your opponents range of hands is here and what is the most profitable play. If your standard play is to bet 1/2 the pot and then give up on the hand when called you are lighting money on fire. A lot of players will peel the flop with ATC and see if you have the balls to fire a second barrel.
wait for a second while i get down off my high horse.
as played, this should be an easy fold. i would not be surprised to see villain turn over A6s or JTs. maybe even 66. i doubt he plays a set or other PP in a similar fashion. if he is bluffing you then kudos to him for outplaying you. i figure you blew off at least 2000 more chips than necessary.
to settle the check/bet flop, bet/check/fold turn or river question, answer these first:
how should the villain interpret dingleberry's check on a draw heavy flop? then what should he think about a weak bet on an even heavier drawing turn? what sort of range would he put dingleberry on?
how should dingleberry interpret villain's check behind and call? then what about the min-raise? what sort of range can dingleberry put villain on?
should dingleberry be happy to add 20+% to his stack by folding out a speculative hand on the flop or potentially risk disaster by trying to get some value from weaker hands? how much extra value can dingleberry realistically get?
if a flop bet gets raised, what should dingleberry do?
if dingleberry gets smooth called or checked behind, how many scare cards can come on the turn or river?
can dingleberry pull off the money shot?
i believe these lead to the preferred (perhaps NOT perfect) action.
You should re-read my post I think. When did I say KK was a bluff?
I said "There is a chance that he's trying to bluff your bluff, because it really does look like you are bluffing."
Note "because it really does look like you are bluffing" - That's how he's seeing it.
I also did give a specific example, yes. It was extreme, of course. Will it happen again? Not likely. Thanks for pointing that out. I didn't base any of what I feel should be done in this situation on my situation and I would play my hand very similar to the way I played it, except I would bet the flop for a feeler next time.
I also did mention a range of hands. Here:
"Either way, the villian called the pre-flop raise, so he probably has at least a low pocket pair. That 5 could have been the same situation! Maybe he made his set! You have 5, 7, 8 and 9's - all set mining cards. A set is likely here. If he made his set on the flop, he might want to check to hope you hit a pair on the turn or tried to bluff. If he hit on the turn, he wants you to bet on the river so he can go over top of you. Same as if he hit on the flop. He wants to trap you."
The only thing I would change there is "A set is likely here" to "A set is very possible here". Again, due to the set mining board. He let him see a free turn card and may have hit the set! On second look, he could easily have 56 or 66 or TJ here as well.
I like this post. Especially the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs.
I say always bet the flop to gain information. Then, 3/4 bet the turn to see what the guy has. If he calls and is known to not be a full donk, you might want to run.
The question is, if he calls the turn, what do you do on the river? You don't want to look weak, but with calling a pre-flop raise and calling the large turn bet, you can put him on a pretty good hand.
Are we trying to get the guy to fold here?
Or, should we be putting in a bit less - an amount we feel comfortable with - hoping that he calls all the way to the river?
Am I wrong on this, or do we want to represent the A with the best kicker?
I feel after this thread, I would probably bet the flop, bet the turn, like I said, then bet the river if he doesn't push back. If he calls, I either lose or win. If he goes over top of me, I fold, depending on the player and the amount. He may just have pocket T's and is hoping to take the pot.
This thread R trainwreck:
So I'll strip away the unnecessary wording...you agree.
and here you agree again that we're looking at trends and approaches:
and here you did not understand..No claims as to whether that's my fault for being unclear or you're busy with something else and not paying full attention to the thread.
my position is written here:
and here:
and here:
and here:
And in response to:
This is where you teeter on being guilty of fancy-play-syndrome, as I tried to suggest in my earlier muddled post.
Did you even read this thread?
Well....I am glad you cleared it up for us. Your above post is extremely clear