Horrible ruling - WSOP Ep28

thepok33thepok33
in General Poker Chat
This is just a horrible ruling .. it aired last week WSOP Ep28 about 8min in Ep 28 - Main Event Poker Video by WSOP 2008 .. how has it never been picked up before, with all the hands that have been played in the WSOP ?

Comments

  • moosemoose
    Great 3rd post! Horrible decision.
  • BADAPPLE67BADAPPLE67
    I use that move sometimes, but usually I usually say "I guess I have to look you up" works well but its not nice.
  • 800OVER800OVER
    Brutal decision. I can't believe that even after asking for the floor the second time they still got it wrong. Push forward all your chips but don't let go and you can pull back as many as you want. At least if you're playing the wsop main event.
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    deleted
  • schabsschabs
    That's terrible what a joke, then the russian guy has the sense to babble some swears in his language....
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    Deleted
  • ReefAquariumReefAquarium
    How do you play the video's on the pokvid site?

    I just go the the page and when I click on part1 nothing happens.
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    Deleted
  • MiloMilo
    For the record, I hate guys who will move a stack (in their grasp, as per 13Cards example) forward, and proceed to drop 4-5 chips. In the occasional home tourneys I run, that gets you a caution. It is not right, imo. And I think the ruling in this case, as made by the TD was ridiculous in the extreme. What Carroll said towards the end of the dispute is EXACTLY correct. By that ruling a player could move his whole stack in a push/pull motion as per Losev's action, and then toss in a single chip. Horrible.
  • philliiveyphilliivey
    if i was on that table i would have told everyone to stfu, as a viewer it was entertaining and i do agree it was a fooked ruling, but no need to carry on after the ruling has been made.
  • ReefAquariumReefAquarium
    ReefAquarium wrote: »
    How do you play the video's on the pokvid site?

    I just go the the page and when I click on part1 nothing happens.

    Thanks, I got it working,

    That was clearly the wrong ruling
  • ottawaplayerottawaplayer
    The TD and ruling was focused on the fact that he had not released the chips from his grasp, therefore he was able to pull them back and make a bet. However, if this is accurate, then what Carroll said about his example should also hold true.

    I do recall on some episode of Poker After Dark (I'm pretty sure that it was this show...) that after a raise, the other pro slid the calling amount forward but left a few fingers on the stack while he talked to his HU opponent. Until he released his fingers, it was not considered a call. Now, maybe this is different, since it was a call and not a bet, and also perhaps the pros on Poker After Dark get some variations on the formal rules.
  • RoccoRocco
    TERRIBLE ruling!

    WTF is wrong with those floor personnell?!?

    I was so happy to see that dude get busted out after he went all in -w- some crappy hand. He got what he deserved.
  • BlondeFishBlondeFish
    There is a lot of uninformed hysteria about this hand, especially Michael Carroll, who probably didn't bother reading the WSOP rules but kept babbling about "forward motion" when there is no such rule.

    Here are the WSOP house rules at the Rio regarding string bets:
    The dealer is responsible for calling a string bet. All players at the table are encouraged to assist in calling a string bet if a dealer fails to identify one. A string bet called by a player must be verified by a floor person.

    In this case, the dealer did not deem it to be a string bet. Brandon Cantu and Carroll thought that forward motion constitutes a string bet and they called for the floor. The initial floor person talked about "cut and drop", i.e., a wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot. The main WSOP TD, Jack Effel, also judged that the bet was not released into the pot. He then had a talk with Nikolay Losev after the hand. It's not an easy judgement call, but this is the same as what I would have done: unless there was evidence from the dealer or previous actions that the player was intentionally trying to angle-shoot and get a read off Cantu's reaction, I would rule that 1.5 million is the bet and warn the player not to do it again (under WSOP Rules #30 and #41).

    In other words, I agree with the floor people Effel, K.F., "ColoradoSkiBum" and 13CARDS that it was not a string bet.
    13CARDS wrote: »
    Excellent thread with many excellent points on 2+2
  • westside8westside8
    ottawaplayer wrote: »
    I do recall on some episode of Poker After Dark (I'm pretty sure that it was this show...) that after a raise, the other pro slid the calling amount forward but left a few fingers on the stack while he talked to his HU opponent. Until he released his fingers, it was not considered a call. Now, maybe this is different, since it was a call and not a bet, and also perhaps the pros on Poker After Dark get some variations on the formal rules.

    You're referencing the way Tom Dwan was playing.
  • RoccoRocco
    BlondeFish wrote: »
    There is a lot of uninformed hysteria about this hand, especially Michael Carroll, who probably didn't bother reading the WSOP rules but kept babbling about "forward motion" when there is no such rule.

    Here are the WSOP house rules at the Rio regarding string bets:
    The dealer is responsible for calling a string bet. All players at the table are encouraged to assist in calling a string bet if a dealer fails to identify one. A string bet called by a player must be verified by a floor person.

    In this case, the dealer did not deem it to be a string bet. Brandon Cantu and Carroll thought that forward motion constitutes a string bet and they called for the floor. The initial floor person talked about "cut and drop", i.e., a wager is not binding until the chips are actually released into the pot. The main WSOP TD, Jack Effel, also judged that the bet was not released into the pot. He then had a talk with Nikolay Losev after the hand. It's not an easy judgement call, but this is the same as what I would have done: unless there was evidence from the dealer or previous actions that the player was intentionally trying to angle-shoot and get a read off Cantu's reaction, I would rule that 1.5 million is the bet and warn the player not to do it again (under WSOP Rules #30 and #41).

    In other words, I agree with the floor people Effel, K.F., "ColoradoSkiBum" and 13CARDS that it was not a string bet.

    You may be right, but it sure didn't look very kosher to me.
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    Deleted
  • LanterneRougeLanterneRouge
    Screw any:bs:loopholes or technicalities from the rule book. Whether he knowingly attempted to string it or not, that is exactly what he did - period. Every player at that table knew it. He should have known it. At a different venue, he might left with his teeth in a bag.
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    Deleted
  • moosemoose
    13CARDS wrote: »
    Not one person yet has thrown out the "screw the technical interpertation of the rules, what about 'in the best interest of the game' ruling" arguement?

    I have to admit this is one of your best posts ever. Well played sir.
  • 13CARDS13CARDS
    deleted
  • LanterneRougeLanterneRouge
    13CARDS wrote: »
    ^^^^^^^^^^^
    Tough Guy

    :rolleyes: :biggrin: lol. Yeah - all 138 lbs of me. Note I didn't say he would necessarily deserve it or that I would do or even advocate it, but it still is what he should expect as a likely outcome if that was pulled at another, more private, venue (eg. a certain club near me that is, strangely enough, not broadcast on national television).
  • MiloMilo
    Okay, 13Cards, I will stipulate that the TD's ruling is technically correct. But, having stipulated that point, how can the TD then rule that Michael Carroll would not be allowed to do the same exact thing, only using his entire stack? If it's legal to do what Losev did with one tower of chips, why is it not legal with all of them? This assumes that you are able to control your entire chipstack with your two hands. You are not cutting out any chips in doing this, and you are not releasing your chips at any time, so how can the TD say that one is good and the other is not?

    No sarcasm here (for a change), as I am seriously curious about that part of the issue.
  • AcidJoeAcidJoe
    I agree with Milo here, if you can push one stack then pull out and cut why can't you push all then cut one chip.
  • RoccoRocco
    Milo wrote: »
    Okay, 13Cards, I will stipulate that the TD's ruling is technically correct. But, having stipulated that point, how can the TD then rule that Michael Carroll would not be allowed to do the same exact thing, only using his entire stack? If it's legal to do what Losev did with one tower of chips, why is it not legal with all of them? This assumes that you are able to control your entire chipstack with your two hands. You are not cutting out any chips in doing this, and you are not releasing your chips at any time, so how can the TD say that one is good and the other is not?

    No sarcasm here (for a change), as I am seriously curious about that part of the issue.


    Milo is right on this. The floorperson made a bad call. Period.
  • HalifaxLeafsHalifaxLeafs
    hey..i seen that episode and thought that was FAQED!! the "pumpfake" move...
    andthe idiot had the nerve to mutter junk @ a english chat only table..lol..
    Hilarious...i gotta remember the "pump fake" move @ my next poker game...
    CLASSIX...
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