Double or Nothing?

VandalVandal
in STT Strategy
I'm curious if there are any good resources for the Double or Nothing style SnG that is becoming popular on Pacific.

The ICM is invaluable, but I was hoping for something a little more comprehesive... Anyone have any links or basic strategy?

Thanks!
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Comments

  • philliiveyphilliivey
    not sure about resources but just try and be patient and try to remember it's not about winning 1 hand, it is about getting to top 5 if 10 man game, or top 3 if 6 man(which stars needs to get), try to pick up on opportunities to grow your chip stack so your in good shape when it gets to bingofest time if it is a passive table:)

    they are good to get a great hourly rate if you can multi table well, but i think stick with regular sit n go's to build a bankroll.
  • GrahamGraham
    Pokerstars added these recently also. Seems like a good way to make money if you can consistently cash top 5.
  • VoodooVoodoo
    Loving them so far on Pokerstars. Have cashed in 18 of 20 in the $20 and $50 buyins.
  • moosemoose
    Graham wrote: »
    Pokerstars added these recently also. Seems like a good way to make money if you can consistently cash top 5.

    And they cut their rake on them, especially the turbos.
  • MarcoGDMarcoGD
    I'll have to give these a try. Do they play like reg SnG's?
  • westside8westside8
    MarcoGD wrote: »
    I'll have to give these a try. Do they play like reg SnG's?

    Except top 5 pays with double the buy-in (minus rake) and bottom 5 gets nothing. Great for FPP whoring.
  • AcidJoeAcidJoe
    On game added them too seem very soft in the one's I"ve played. Patience is the key
  • JohnnieHJohnnieH
    AcidJoe wrote: »
    On game added them too seem very soft in the one's I"ve played. Patience is the key

    +1

    Anybody would knows PLO must play these...so much dead money.
  • blackmagiczblackmagicz
    Greatest things ever invented for nits like me. I get up to 3500 chips and sit out :)
  • actyperactyper
    wtf I suck at these. 2 wins 3 losses. Need to get nittier.
  • westside8westside8
    How the hell am I doing better in $50 and $20? Small sample size though
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    westside8 wrote: »
    How the hell am I doing better in $50 and $20? Small sample size though

    They prob know where the fold button is. I got called AIPF by A5o, I had AKs, flop A95 obv.

    I am currently only +2 buyins, with a sample size of 6.
  • philliiveyphilliivey
    qft....... does anyne know what a fold button is nowadays, christ:rolleyes:


    WaterLooser wrote: »
    They prob know where the fold button is. I got called AIPF by A5o, I had AKs, flop A95 obv.

    I am currently only +2 buyins, with a sample size of 6.
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    FYI a 'Double or Nothing' tournament is the same thing as a satellite. Same rules apply.
  • WolffhoundWolffhound
    I know, its one hand, but, this happens all the time....
    Dude is sitting out, one orbit, game is over and everyone else Doubles up...
    instead, tool does the following and sitout cashes.

    PokerStars Game #21478074334: Tournament #116320062, $5.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2008/10/25 8:28:09 ET
    Table '116320062 1' 10-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 3: Wolffhound (940 in chips)
    Seat 4: lilorose (1005 in chips)
    Seat 6: LaSilva 666 (6330 in chips)
    Seat 7: QBCOACH29 (4890 in chips)
    Seat 8: MrEBET (350 in chips) is sitting out
    Seat 9: shivsmababy (1485 in chips)
    Wolffhound: posts the ante 25
    lilorose: posts the ante 25
    LaSilva 666: posts the ante 25
    QBCOACH29: posts the ante 25
    MrEBET: posts the ante 25
    shivsmababy: posts the ante 25
    QBCOACH29: posts small blind 125
    MrEBET: posts big blind 250
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Wolffhound [Th 7c]
    shivsmababy: raises 1210 to 1460 and is all-in
    Wolffhound: folds
    lilorose: folds
    LaSilva 666: calls 1460
    QBCOACH29: folds
    MrEBET: folds
    *** FLOP *** [2c Ad Kd]
    *** TURN *** [2c Ad Kd] [5c]
    *** RIVER *** [2c Ad Kd 5c] [Qc]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    shivsmababy: shows [8c 8d] (a pair of Eights)
    LaSilva 666: shows [Jc As] (a pair of Aces)
    LaSilva 666 collected 3445 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 3445 | Rake 0
    Board [2c Ad Kd 5c Qc]
    Seat 3: Wolffhound folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: lilorose folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: LaSilva 666 (button) showed [Jc As] and won (3445) with a pair of Aces
    Seat 7: QBCOACH29 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 8: MrEBET (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 9: shivsmababy showed [8c 8d] and lost with a pair of Eights
  • kostitsyn1489kostitsyn1489
    Wolffhound wrote: »
    I know, its one hand, but, this happens all the time....
    Dude is sitting out, one orbit, game is over and everyone else Doubles up...
    instead, tool does the following and sitout cashes.

    PokerStars Game #21478074334: Tournament #116320062, $5.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2008/10/25 8:28:09 ET
    Table '116320062 1' 10-max Seat #6 is the button
    Seat 3: Wolffhound (940 in chips)
    Seat 4: lilorose (1005 in chips)
    Seat 6: LaSilva 666 (6330 in chips)
    Seat 7: QBCOACH29 (4890 in chips)
    Seat 8: MrEBET (350 in chips) is sitting out
    Seat 9: shivsmababy (1485 in chips)
    Wolffhound: posts the ante 25
    lilorose: posts the ante 25
    LaSilva 666: posts the ante 25
    QBCOACH29: posts the ante 25
    MrEBET: posts the ante 25
    shivsmababy: posts the ante 25
    QBCOACH29: posts small blind 125
    MrEBET: posts big blind 250
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to Wolffhound [Th 7c]
    shivsmababy: raises 1210 to 1460 and is all-in
    Wolffhound: folds
    lilorose: folds
    LaSilva 666: calls 1460
    QBCOACH29: folds
    MrEBET: folds
    *** FLOP *** [2c Ad Kd]
    *** TURN *** [2c Ad Kd] [5c]
    *** RIVER *** [2c Ad Kd 5c] [Qc]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    shivsmababy: shows [8c 8d] (a pair of Eights)
    LaSilva 666: shows [Jc As] (a pair of Aces)
    LaSilva 666 collected 3445 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 3445 | Rake 0
    Board [2c Ad Kd 5c Qc]
    Seat 3: Wolffhound folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 4: lilorose folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: LaSilva 666 (button) showed [Jc As] and won (3445) with a pair of Aces
    Seat 7: QBCOACH29 (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 8: MrEBET (big blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 9: shivsmababy showed [8c 8d] and lost with a pair of Eights

    Yeah it keeps happeing... With 6 guys left, i was on the button 2nd in stack with like 5000, the guy on the small blind was all in due to the small blind and the guy on the BB who looked really stupid was high stack. Nobody calls and i have J10 suited so i call thats a good hand vs a guy in the dark like the guy in the small blind, but the guy in the BB makes raise to 1000 which is 4 times the BB so i fold, i guess he's got something good to raise like that and i have no raison to risk anything at this point. He ends up having K-6 the guy on the SB has A8 both pairs, i make the straight, but i folded so the guy survive. What the hell was he thinking about raising there...
  • DennisGDennisG
    I gave up playing these (though, I haven't checked out the stars one that gives you the big overlay)...even if you win 80% of them..your hourly rate sucks. 11 bucks to play x 10 is 110 bucks for 10 games...you win 8/10..collect 160 bucks.. at 45 min each that is what? about...8 hrs? play time..for 50 bucks.

    This is of course..providing you care about your time playing...lol
  • mynick71mynick71
    I like playing the turbo double ups. As for strategy I only play premium hands in the early going always with a raise and limp with small or medium pairs trying to hit my set. Try not to waste to many of your chips by playing too many pots. With about 6 or 7 players left hopefully you have accumulated a few chips by now and continue to play good hands, if not look for a spot to push all in, unless your opponent has a very strong hand they can't call and you pick up the blinds and antes. I only do this in very late position and no one has limped into the pot.

    One thing that really bugs me is that the big stacks are always giving there chips away to the small stacks. And not calling when they have the pot odds to do so.
  • WolffhoundWolffhound
    Ihaveyourname wrote: »
    I gave up playing these (though, I haven't checked out the stars one that gives you the big overlay)...even if you win 80% of them..your hourly rate sucks. 11 bucks to play x 10 is 110 bucks for 10 games...you win 8/10..collect 160 bucks.. at 45 min each that is what? about...8 hrs? play time..for 50 bucks.

    This is of course..providing you care about your time playing...lol

    You are playing one at a time? If you are playing 4 tables, at 45 minutes, you are making 25/hr based on your winning 8/10. I went to Brock...so, the math is weak and quick. But, if you are winning 8/10, I'd still be playing them if I was you.
  • DennisGDennisG
    Hence the reason I said "even if"..

    While it isn't mathematically or maybe financially sound, 25 bucks an hour isn't worth sitting through 4 of those things for me...I don't really enjoy them that much. If I want to do something I don't enjoy that much, I will go to work..lol..
  • TiMSuMTiMSuM
    Had some time so took a stab at these. $5.20 (10-man) turbos on PS. Cashed 9/12 so far. Will post more results once I get a better sample. These are interesting though, the play is so tight for the first three rounds it's ridiculous.
  • TiMSuMTiMSuM
    16/22 so far.

    First time I tried 8 tabling yesterday. I have no idea how some people can 20-30 table at once, even if the tables are all nicely tiled so nothing overlaps. There's soooo much beeping reminding you of your turn. Even with the auto-check boxes it was difficult to keep up at times!
  • Young GrimmYoung Grimm
    Tried one of these on Stars ($5+) last night for the first time, cashed but I found the whole thing quite boring. Maybe I'm missing a great opportunity to make money, but I think that's the last one I'll ever play.
  • herschelwherschelw
    kostitsyn1489 wrote: »
    Yeah it keeps happeing... With 6 guys left, i was on the button 2nd in stack with like 5000, the guy on the small blind was all in due to the small blind and the guy on the BB who looked really stupid was high stack. Nobody calls and i have J10 suited so i call thats a good hand vs a guy in the dark like the guy in the small blind, but the guy in the BB makes raise to 1000 which is 4 times the BB so i fold, i guess he's got something good to raise like that and i have no raison to risk anything at this point. He ends up having K-6 the guy on the SB has A8 both pairs, i make the straight, but i folded so the guy survive. What the hell was he thinking about raising there...

    With 6 left in one of these you should NEVER EVER be calling from late position with JTs. At this point every decision should be based on your stack in relation to the other stacks.
  • herschelwherschelw
    TiMSuM wrote: »
    16/22 so far.

    First time I tried 8 tabling yesterday. I have no idea how some people can 20-30 table at once, even if the tables are all nicely tiled so nothing overlaps. There's soooo much beeping reminding you of your turn. Even with the auto-check boxes it was difficult to keep up at times!

    They don't tile they cascade if using one screen. I play 18-20 tables at a time on 3 large monitors. It's pretty doable if you work up to it.
  • herschelwherschelw
    Wolffhound wrote: »
    You are playing one at a time? If you are playing 4 tables, at 45 minutes, you are making 25/hr based on your winning 8/10. I went to Brock...so, the math is weak and quick. But, if you are winning 8/10, I'd still be playing them if I was you.

    If you're greatly outplaying everyone(20% roi) you'll make roughly $8 an hour. That 8/10 win rate is unsustainable.
  • herschelwherschelw
    mynick71 wrote: »
    I like playing the turbo double ups. As for strategy I only play premium hands in the early going always with a raise and limp with small or medium pairs trying to hit my set. Try not to waste to many of your chips by playing too many pots. With about 6 or 7 players left hopefully you have accumulated a few chips by now and continue to play good hands, if not look for a spot to push all in, unless your opponent has a very strong hand they can't call and you pick up the blinds and antes. I only do this in very late position and no one has limped into the pot.

    One thing that really bugs me is that the big stacks are always giving there chips away to the small stacks. And not calling when they have the pot odds to do so.

    Pot odds arent important when survival is the only thing rewarded. If you're among the biggest stack in a double or nothing you shouldnt be playing a hand. Let's say we're 6 handed(5 get double thier money) I have 7k chips, a 2500 chip stack shoves on my BB from the button and there's a 1200 chip stack and an 800 chip stack at the table with blinds at 200/400. I MUST fold pocket aces here. This is basic satellite strategy and it can be easily mathematically proven that it's the best play with an ICM calculator. I will cash a higher % of the time when I fold than when I call.
  • ReefAquariumReefAquarium
    herschelw wrote: »
    Pot odds arent important when survival is the only thing rewarded. If you're among the biggest stack in a double or nothing you shouldnt be playing a hand. Let's say we're 6 handed(5 get double thier money) I have 7k chips, a 2500 chip stack shoves on my BB from the button and there's a 1200 chip stack and an 800 chip stack at the table with blinds at 200/400. I MUST fold pocket aces here. This is basic satellite strategy and it can be easily mathematically proven that it's the best play with an ICM calculator. I will cash a higher % of the time when I fold than when I call.



    To crank some numbers. assume the other 2 guys have 1000,

    Your ICM equity is

    Player Name
    Chips
    ICM Equity

    0.1997
    1st: 0.5362nd: 0.2823rd: 0.1254th: 0.0455th: 0.012
    0.1918
    1st: 0.1792nd: 0.2613rd: 0.2404th: 0.1765th: 0.104
    0.1651
    1st: 0.0862nd: 0.1363rd: 0.1844th: 0.2105th: 0.210
    0.1363
    1st: 0.0572nd: 0.0933rd: 0.1334th: 0.1755th: 0.225
    0.1535
    1st: 0.0712nd: 0.1143rd: 0.1604th: 0.1975th: 0.225
    0.1535


    Lets say you lose with AA.


    Player Name
    Chips
    ICM Equity

    0.1986
    1st: 0.3572nd: 0.3083rd: 0.1964th: 0.0975th: 0.035
    0.1986
    1st: 0.3572nd: 0.3083rd: 0.1964th: 0.0975th: 0.035
    0.1639
    1st: 0.0862nd: 0.1143rd: 0.1784th: 0.2195th: 0.223
    0.1347
    1st: 0.0572nd: 0.0783rd: 0.1254th: 0.1795th: 0.235
    0.1521
    1st: 0.0712nd: 0.0963rd: 0.1534th: 0.2045th: 0.237
    0.1521


    You've lost .0011 equity trying to gain .0003 equity.

    So you need 3 and 2/3 odds to make this call.

    AA will beat his range 3.66 to 1 so it looks profitable on a 1 on 1.

    But this doesn't factor in the chance that some (idiot) will call.
    If they do then you get a free ride. ...

    So if you assume sensible players (never true) then you can call with AA getting a very slight advantage. If you assume real humans playing behind you, then fold.
  • TooTallTooTall
    TiMSuM wrote: »
    16/22 so far.

    First time I tried 8 tabling yesterday. I have no idea how some people can 20-30 table at once, even if the tables are all nicely tiled so nothing overlaps. There's soooo much beeping reminding you of your turn. Even with the auto-check boxes it was difficult to keep up at times!

    auto-check boxes? You mean you select check/fold before you are prompted when it's your turn??
  • gagsgags
    Yeah Ongame has these and they are fun to play but man are they ever slow! They take forever to end... and then you only double your money after all that time..
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