Everyone at a poker table has the right to ensure that the game is being run fairly and that no collusion is occurring. Although the rule can and is abused, it needs to be there for the one time in a hundred it works as intended.
But the problem with that is, if you were to ask now for a person's hand to be shown, you're either a jerk or accusing them of cheating... now, if they know you can only call a floor, you're basically saying "you're a cheat". Not everyone is comfortable making that accusation. This means people are less likely to utilize the rule.
Secondly, if this is a MTT, are they going to pause the clock? Will everyone be paused while the floor comes over? Nope, not likely, and given the average casino blind structure, every minute matters. A new exploitation becomes available - Donkey McSucksatPoker suddenly calls for the floor, killing off a few minutes because he has a massive stack.
Thirdly, a floor can be given information, but cannot discern the way things have been progressing on the table.... If a guy folded 2 pair, was he colluding, or making a good fold?
But the problem with that is, if you were to ask now for a person's hand to be shown, you're either a jerk or accusing them of cheating... now, if they know you can only call a floor, you're basically saying "you're a cheat". Not everyone is comfortable making that accusation. This means people are less likely to utilize the rule.
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This is the reason for the rule in the first place!!! If you aint comfortable calling someone a cheat.....then don't ask to see the cards!
My problem with the rule is that it promotes the "auction" style of showdown where two guys refuse to show thier hands.. Drags hands on forever. It also opens the door for more "I have a full house-miscalling your hand" angleshoots.
p.s. I don't play many, if any, live tournament... so I really don't care, except for the inevatable rulings getting carried over to cash games by incompetent floors!
But do you have the "right" to ask to see someone's losing hand at showdown? Or, do you only have the "privilege" to ask; a privilege which can be revoked at any time?
Do you, as the loser at showdown, have the right to muck your hand and concede the pot to a shown better hand? If you do, then why does that right get over-ruled by the "right" of another player, who has not called the bet on the river, to mandate that your cards be shown?
Correct me if I'm wrong.
but the person with the last aggressive bet (first bet), even if it was made preflop, on the flop, turn or river has to show their hand first. Even if he was bluffing!
but the person with the last aggressive bet (first bet), even if it was made preflop, on the flop, turn or river has to show their hand first. Even if he was bluffing!
I believe you are correct...but that has nothing to do with what you quoted....
But do you have the "right" to ask to see someone's losing hand at showdown? Or, do you only have the "privilege" to ask; a privilege which can be revoked at any time?
Do you, as the loser at showdown, have the right to muck your hand and concede the pot to a shown better hand? If you do, then why does that right get over-ruled by the "right" of another player, who has not called the bet on the river, to mandate that your cards be shown?
Personally?
I think that if your hand made it to showdown, then showdown your hand. I don't think that you have the "right" to muck your hand no.
I think that anyone who suspects you of cheating has the right to take reasonable measures to ensure you're not.
I think this supersedes your "right" to muck any given hand. Now, if someone is abusing this rule, then the floor should be called and the situation investigated. However, making it MORE difficult to ensure a fair game is running is a bad idea. Hence, I'm against this new rule.
I think that anyone who suspects you of cheating has the right to take reasonable measures to ensure you're not.
I think this supersedes your "right" to muck any given hand. Now, if someone is abusing this rule, then the floor should be called and the situation investigated. However, making it MORE difficult to ensure a fair game is running is a bad idea. Hence, I'm against this new rule.
Mark
So you think that someone should be allowed to see the cards if they suspect cheating, and you agree that there is a right to muck your cards.....which means you agree with the rule. The rule does not make it harder....if you wanna see the cards you say so, the floor comes over and deals with it. If you aren't confident enough in your belief of collusion/cheating then too bad for you. I love this rule.*
*tacit admission of aggreement with 13cards, hence the end of the world is nigh. Get your money out of all stocks/funds/banks. Have sex with strangers/masturbate in public (my selection)
I won't apologize.... I was utterly shocked that someone with 3000+ posts on a poker forum would not agree that a player should be able to muck his cards and concede the pot at showdown.
I didn't say that you CAN'T muck your cards... but that it isn't a RIGHT to muck them.
You hand, if played to showdown, and suspect, should be subject to scrutiny if cheating is suspected. Further, considering this new rule (as I read it) means that ONLY the floor would see the cards (though I may admittedly be wrong here), and given the very fact that miscommunication has occurred and will occur, and the fact that the floor is working in a vacuum, means that I disagree with this rule.
Mark
P.S. might I suggest that considering your obvious disdain for this pokerforum's overall opinions, you should not use experience on said forum as a support for your argument?
Comments
Everyone at a poker table has the right to ensure that the game is being run fairly and that no collusion is occurring. Although the rule can and is abused, it needs to be there for the one time in a hundred it works as intended.
Mark
But the problem with that is, if you were to ask now for a person's hand to be shown, you're either a jerk or accusing them of cheating... now, if they know you can only call a floor, you're basically saying "you're a cheat". Not everyone is comfortable making that accusation. This means people are less likely to utilize the rule.
Secondly, if this is a MTT, are they going to pause the clock? Will everyone be paused while the floor comes over? Nope, not likely, and given the average casino blind structure, every minute matters. A new exploitation becomes available - Donkey McSucksatPoker suddenly calls for the floor, killing off a few minutes because he has a massive stack.
Thirdly, a floor can be given information, but cannot discern the way things have been progressing on the table.... If a guy folded 2 pair, was he colluding, or making a good fold?
Mark
P.S. - Fourthly, you're a floor.....
p.s. I don't play many, if any, live tournament... so I really don't care, except for the inevatable rulings getting carried over to cash games by incompetent floors!
Correct me if I'm wrong.
but the person with the last aggressive bet (first bet), even if it was made preflop, on the flop, turn or river has to show their hand first. Even if he was bluffing!
I believe you are correct...but that has nothing to do with what you quoted....
Personally?
I think that if your hand made it to showdown, then showdown your hand. I don't think that you have the "right" to muck your hand no.
Mark
you should have the right to muck your and at any time! You were on a draw and missed.
I think this supersedes your "right" to muck any given hand. Now, if someone is abusing this rule, then the floor should be called and the situation investigated. However, making it MORE difficult to ensure a fair game is running is a bad idea. Hence, I'm against this new rule.
Mark
P.S. Good response there 13cards
So you think that someone should be allowed to see the cards if they suspect cheating, and you agree that there is a right to muck your cards.....which means you agree with the rule. The rule does not make it harder....if you wanna see the cards you say so, the floor comes over and deals with it. If you aren't confident enough in your belief of collusion/cheating then too bad for you. I love this rule.*
*tacit admission of aggreement with 13cards, hence the end of the world is nigh. Get your money out of all stocks/funds/banks. Have sex with strangers/masturbate in public (my selection)
I didn't say that you CAN'T muck your cards... but that it isn't a RIGHT to muck them.
You hand, if played to showdown, and suspect, should be subject to scrutiny if cheating is suspected. Further, considering this new rule (as I read it) means that ONLY the floor would see the cards (though I may admittedly be wrong here), and given the very fact that miscommunication has occurred and will occur, and the fact that the floor is working in a vacuum, means that I disagree with this rule.
Mark
P.S. might I suggest that considering your obvious disdain for this pokerforum's overall opinions, you should not use experience on said forum as a support for your argument?