Folding Kings Preflop
Ran into another situation on Friday at a live tourney.......the fabled K's vs. A's.
I'm not new to this in tourney play....I've had the K's about 10 times in live tourney's in this spot. Most of the time it's just a cold deck and lose or suck out. But on 2 occasions I can remember being quite sure my opponent held A's.....but of course I call anyway.
Here's my scenario on Friday:
16 players left, paying 10.....Blinds 1500 - 3000 no ante. Avg stack is maybe 30000.....I have just over 40000.
UTG with K's....raise to 9000........folds around to the buttom.
He's so tight he makes the girls jealous...and pushes all-in for slightly less than my total. Blinds fold.....I was going through his range of hands out loud. He's very easy to play against....would have cold called with Q's or less....the only hands I can put him on are K's or A's......being I had K's.....logic told me he had A's. Of course I call anyhow.......wtf.
Why can't I fold K's preflop here? Damn that pisses me off when you know, but you call anyway.
I'm not new to this in tourney play....I've had the K's about 10 times in live tourney's in this spot. Most of the time it's just a cold deck and lose or suck out. But on 2 occasions I can remember being quite sure my opponent held A's.....but of course I call anyway.
Here's my scenario on Friday:
16 players left, paying 10.....Blinds 1500 - 3000 no ante. Avg stack is maybe 30000.....I have just over 40000.
UTG with K's....raise to 9000........folds around to the buttom.
He's so tight he makes the girls jealous...and pushes all-in for slightly less than my total. Blinds fold.....I was going through his range of hands out loud. He's very easy to play against....would have cold called with Q's or less....the only hands I can put him on are K's or A's......being I had K's.....logic told me he had A's. Of course I call anyhow.......wtf.
Why can't I fold K's preflop here? Damn that pisses me off when you know, but you call anyway.
Comments
online, against tight player that don't raise much, it's a fold.
live, since the field is alot donkier, it make hard to fold good hands.
for tournment
you cannot make decision base on your hand and his range.
you have to take M, stack size,payout strutcher....
since you have less then M10,
if top 6 players get pay. I jam it here with KK all day.
top 9 players get pay. i'll have to see how many shortstack.
say 16 players left. 6 players with less then M2.
then i'll consider it bubble time, and try not to loose my entire stack.
I mean never.....I think even if he told me his hand I call.
- (satellites excluded).
I'll post another KK spot later tonight.
This isn't your best work, but I just wanted to take a minute and say that I'm becoming your biggest fan.
I, on average do the opposite. Online I think I've never folded here preflop.....sometimes just calling raise if I suspect a big hand to see the flop. Live, I rely more on how players play, and my reads on them.
Well, I did call......and will probably call next time I'm in this spot.
Was more looking to see if anyone has ever been very sure your apponent held A's, and were able to make a laydown preflop.
Not a chance in hell, not live, not online. I would never be that positive on my preflop read as to be able to pull off that miracle.
I play alot of lowball tourney live poker.....and I would beg to differ. Given, it is extremely rare when I can range a guy on that hand (ie. almost never)......but it can happen. I think about half the table assumed he had A's as well....so it wasn't just my average reading skills.
Again, I'll probably still call every time.....chug my beer and swear at the dealer for another cold deck.
btw, I would never fold KK in this situation. This is one of the make or break spots to get you into the money.
Back to the original post, I would never ever ever fold her preflop unless it was a satellite and top x got a seat or something. I have fold KK after a flop where I was A) sure I was behind or
I have never seen any player so tight all I could put him on was AA or KK.
I don't get what playing lowball tournies have to do with putting a guy on AA? Did you mean low buyins?
Extremely tight and passive player.....usually limp with AK, or call a small raise unless he's short-stacked (didn't say he was a good player). 3 bet not in his vocabulary if he has a decent stack (unless he has the nuts of course).
And I've folded KK twice live (never online) both times in a cash game on 3rd raises preflop by tight players who are not short stacked. On both occasions I was shown to be right, although on one occasion a shorter stacked player called with middle suited cards I think and cracked the guys AA. He would have beat myself as well. I don't think I could do it in a normal tourney situation. I've probably ran my KK into AA several times before and maybe outdrawn the A's once.
Hand #16312D93C5002559: WPT $12,000 FINAL!!
Seat 1: Vaak*** (492812.00 in chips)
Seat 3: damn*** (168282.00 in chips)
Seat 5: actyper (330029.00 in chips)
Seat 6: Igot*** (178140.00 in chips)
Seat 7: Sail*** (293384.00 in chips)
Seat 9: snoo*** (112766.00 in chips)
Seat 10: CORK*** (304587.00 in chips)
Vaak Klaas posts ante of $1,000
damn_u posts ante of $1,000
actyper posts ante of $1,000
Igotdanuts posts ante of $1,000
Sailboats posts ante of $1,000
snooker147 posts ante of $1,000
CORKYHOUSE posts ante of $1,000
Igot***: posts small blind $5,000
Sail***: posts big blind $10,000
Dealt to actyper [ Kd Kh ]
snoo***: folds
CORK***: folds
Vaak***: raises to $30,000
damn***: folds
actyper: raises to $80,000
Igot***: folds
Sail***: folds
Vaak***: is all in 461812.0000
I'd call... I think he senses weakness by your reraise and based on what you said about the villain.
The tell in question is one I see a lot with rockets. I find people run from rockets. As soon as they recognise the cards they put them down like they don't want anyone to see and thier eyes run away from the cards. Most experienced players can avoid this but a lot of average guys fall victim to thier instincts. In the case above I saw it, I was absolutely positive and so I eventually folded after testing his raise with a reraise and getting raised all in. It is only one of the tells to look for in this instance... seeing the 'I can't beleive I am getting action with rockets' look on the guys face helps too.
Doesn't really help you being online in your scenario though. The tough thing is that he's an agressive player.... and it's tough to put them on monsters (which is why they get so paid off when they do get them). Really tough considering you two are the chip leaders and he's just smacked you across the face with his all in daring you to go. But AA isn't the only hand I could put him on here. On the other hand you don't have to fight here.
I'd call.
In my view the typical lowball tourney (50 - 100 buyin) will be full of players with little or no modified play....ie. they play the same hand the same way everytime.
The bigger the buy-in, generally the tougher the field I've found.
IMHO it is much easier to peg one of these 'low-ball' players on a hand.....be it their tells, their confidence, or whatever.
That's a tough spot.....only 3 spots paid to the big prize......I call here and hope for the best.
fyi got confused by your term lowball. Lowball is also a poker game where the worst hand wins.
+1.
Tight old nit raises pre-flop, gets re-raised by a player. Old nit re-re-raises all-in, and the player calls! Old nit turns over pocket aces, to no ones surprise, the other player turns over pocket 7s! WTF!!! Everyone asks how he didn't know the old guy had aces? "Oh I knew he had aces, it's just that if he has aces here, my 7s are better than pocket kings... And I can't fold pocket kings!"
I would be more likely to fold KK preflop if the relative stacks were 200bb or more.
Speaking of folding KK......
This hand is just dirty.
YouTube - Icecold deck poker hand (unbelievable)
i have black kk.
I have about 1700. I've been tight and very aggressive, pretty much never limping preflop.
I don't have much of a read on the villain. He's been very quiet. I've got him pegged at tight. this is the first time I've been in a hand with him in about the hour we've been together....
I raise to to 15
LP flat calls
BB makes it 60,
I tank... I want him to think I've got a really tough decision to make here with my .... MP or AQ....
I make it 150,
LP flat calls...
BB hesitates a few seconds and then quickly pushes all in , 500
LP has about 280 behind, I've got everyone covered.
What do you do???
Sounds like u know his play and his all-in gave you call for concern. I think calling him was not a bad decision, like who can honestly lay down KK in your position? However, you pushed in a third of your stack and then he goes all in? Usually that says i got QQ, kK or AA! However with the pot odds i still would call!! You just got unlucky and made the right move. Thats just poker bud
He's right... His 77's were better than KK
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 81.946% 81.71% 00.23% 50371344 142614.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 18.054% 17.82% 00.23% 10986372 142614.00 { KK }
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equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 80.481% 80.31% 00.17% 49506984 103734.00 { AA }
Hand 1: 19.519% 19.35% 00.17% 11928492 103734.00 { 77 }
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1.5% better, way behind still but his logic was 'correct'.