Curious Button Play vs a microstacked BB

MonteroyMonteroy
in MTT Strategy
I am in the BB with such a small stack that I am forced to go all in with any two cards. The sb is the definition of loose bad, basically seeing any flop and any pair is the nuts etc, so I was actually more stunned to see him fold preflop more then the buttons actual hand.

I guess I am trying to see some potential logic in the buttons move, given he doesnt have anything invested in the pot, so it just seems like he is randomly betting 1.5 BBs with no fold equity as a random gamble. If the sb was a tight guy maybe I can see it as a relatively low risk way to get some extra chips, but in the end it just feels like a fairly small waste of chips given the two players that are to follow.

I am trying to think what hands this play works given a very, very loose sb and a very tight sb player. My gut is that J5 is probably not one of those hands, but comments are welcome. I do see this quite a bit when players try to steal unstealable blinds with bad hands, just trying to see if there is any real point.

PokerStars Game #20614738367: Tournament #109499706, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2008/09/22 18:12:03 ET
Table '109499706 272' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: pats846 (7640 in chips)
Seat 2: TJD_Texas (16951 in chips)
Seat 3: Calasabum (54033 in chips)
Seat 4: VinnyTee (95022 in chips)
Seat 5: dowcide (95029 in chips)
Seat 6: Monteroy (3300 in chips)
Seat 7: player2003 (102914 in chips)
Seat 9: gekketukker (151808 in chips)
pats846: posts the ante 200
TJD_Texas: posts the ante 200
Calasabum: posts the ante 200
VinnyTee: posts the ante 200
dowcide: posts the ante 200
Monteroy: posts the ante 200
player2003: posts the ante 200
gekketukker: posts the ante 200
dowcide: posts small blind 1000
Monteroy: posts big blind 2000

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [Qh 9h]
player2003: folds
gekketukker: folds
pats846: folds
TJD_Texas: folds
Calasabum: folds
VinnyTee: raises 2500 to 4500
dowcide: folds
Monteroy: calls 1100 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (1400) returned to VinnyTee
*** FLOP *** [Kh Kd Qd]
*** TURN *** [Kh Kd Qd] [2c]
*** RIVER *** [Kh Kd Qd 2c] [6d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Monteroy: shows [Qh 9h] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
VinnyTee: shows [Jc 5c] (a pair of Kings)
Monteroy collected 8800 from pot

Comments

  • ReefAquariumReefAquarium
    If you show him that you have 72o and he shows you AA. You're getting about 8 to 1 to call....

    Something similar happened to me playing live, Blinds were 4000/2000 with an 500 ante 6 handed, player raises all in, I have 72s sooooooted...in the BB, My stack was 6500 preflop, ... So I have 2000 to call after I post 4000 + 500 ante ...
    I tank.. it's heads up so I show him my cards ... he shows me TT (none of my suit) .. and he says , "I assume you don't call."




    Do you call???? ... I'm geting 7 to 1 so it's very nearly a call just based on pot odds...... Plus I'll have a shot at getting a real stack if I win.... but If I fold it's blinds out city next hand...
  • MonteroyMonteroy
    Of course you call, barring a very extreme money bubble situation that makes you a bunch more if you survive the hand. I was calling 100% of the time in my case, so I was more puzzled by the buttons play with J5 given that.

    In your case you were about a 6-1 dog? If you pass on that you will basically have to win 2 all ins with random cards anyways (including one forced next hand) just to get to the same stack as you would have here if you win this hand. I would have to believe this was your best shot, albeit not a pretty one, at getting anywhere in the tournament.
  • actyperactyper
    Looks like its pretty deep in a tourney. J5s is 50% against a random hand. Worth it to try eliminating a player without inflicting damage to his stack. SB should shove with any 2 if folded to him as well.
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    For starters - they were sooooooted. Enough to get a lot of bad players excited. Secondly, do you really think he is paying attention to stack sizes? Maybe donking up more than one $3 tournament at a time, probably just saw a fold around to the button and auto-pumped it to get the blinds and antes. I have really tried to figure out why some people make certain plays, sometimes it is just because they aren't paying attention.
  • T8urmoneyT8urmoney
    ReefAquarium wrote: »
    If you show him that you have 72o and he shows you AA. You're getting about 8 to 1 to call....

    Something similar happened to me playing live, Blinds were 4000/2000 with an 500 ante 6 handed, player raises all in, I have 72s sooooooted...in the BB, My stack was 6500 preflop, ... So I have 2000 to call after I post 4000 + 500 ante ...
    I tank.. it's heads up so I show him my cards ... he shows me TT (none of my suit) .. and he says , "I assume you don't call."




    Do you call???? ... I'm geting 7 to 1 so it's very nearly a call just based on pot odds...... Plus I'll have a shot at getting a real stack if I win.... but If I fold it's blinds out city next hand...


    In this spot, I don't even look at my cards, as it'll often just make you want to fold. Most of the time you'll be 2/1 dog at most. I've done the same thing before, folding in that spot, but you put yourself in a much worse spot trying to win with your next 2 random card in the small blind.....for a much smaller pot.
  • MonteroyMonteroy
    WaterLooser wrote: »
    For starters - they were sooooooted. Enough to get a lot of bad players excited. Secondly, do you really think he is paying attention to stack sizes? Maybe donking up more than one $3 tournament at a time, probably just saw a fold around to the button and auto-pumped it to get the blinds and antes. I have really tried to figure out why some people make certain plays, sometimes it is just because they aren't paying attention.

    I am more interested in the theoretical play rather then trying to think about what the button player was thinking. I really don't try to put any depth of thought on most of the players at this level tournament anyway.

    If the sb was a tight player then I don't overly mind the raise, but with an extremely loose sb player who rarely folds preflop it seems a better time to just not bother (and yes the sb should just raise any 2).

    Let me put it this way. If you were the button with J5 suited in this exact spot and you noticed the stacks and the sb play tendencies, what range of hands do you raise or fold with, and where does J5 suited fall?
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    Even with the stacks above J5 is probably one i'd skip. Depending on my stack position, 78+ is probably enough for me. I have seen many folds where people keep around pennies rather than go out on Q3o.
  • actyperactyper
    Why 78 but not J5?
  • ReefAquariumReefAquarium
    If I didn't make it clear ...

    You're getting about 5 to 1 here ...
    There is no point in looking at your cards.
    cover the window that shows the screen with one hand and hit call with the other.

    I'd call with 23o, 27o.
    The cut card and a deuce is almost good enough.

    If someone shows me they have TT and I have to think about calling with 27s then 27o with them not showing is a clear call.

    J5o is a clear easy call here.

    But the point is....

    Your cards don't fucking matter...

    You have odds to call no matter what cards you have...

    Can you see why???

    If you can't you need to show some love to a calc

    Yes you will probably loose here.
    Yes you will probably be out of the tournament here.


    But you have odds to call...
    so call.
  • WaterLooserWaterLooser
    ReefAquarium wrote: »
    J5o is a clear easy call here.

    I think you misread the OP. J5 was the hand the button had trying to steal the micro-stacked blinds. Obv Monteroy is calling with any 2 cards, which is the exact point of his post. If you KNOW that the BB is calling with any 2, is J5s strong enough to raise in with?
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