Getting The Most Money for your hand.
I'm playing 1/2 NLH last week in Windsor.
I'm sitting in late position with about $250 and pick up 10HJH.
Someone early on bumps it to $12. A couple callers ahead of me, I call, and a few behind.
All together 6 of us see the flop at $12 each for a pot of $72.
Flop comes 8H9DQH.
A solid player in early position bets out $45, folded to a fairly weak player min raises to $90.
Folded to me.
Now I'm thinking the initial bettor could have any number of hands, the only ones of which I am at all worried about are AH*H or KH*H that could possibly draw to a bigger flush than me. The min-raiser is making it way to obvious that's he's trying to trap. I'm thinking KK or AA, or any set.
My options are;
1. Flat call feeling the initial bettor will also call, and I can get more out of min-raiser on the turn and river.
2. Raise which will get initial bettor out of the hand, loosing anymore of his money, but stopping him from drawing at a higher flush.
Min-raiser is going to call my bet no matter what. I figure I can double up off of him, but need to decide if keeping the initial bettor in the hand is worth the risk of a flush draw.
What do you do?
I'm sitting in late position with about $250 and pick up 10HJH.
Someone early on bumps it to $12. A couple callers ahead of me, I call, and a few behind.
All together 6 of us see the flop at $12 each for a pot of $72.
Flop comes 8H9DQH.
A solid player in early position bets out $45, folded to a fairly weak player min raises to $90.
Folded to me.
Now I'm thinking the initial bettor could have any number of hands, the only ones of which I am at all worried about are AH*H or KH*H that could possibly draw to a bigger flush than me. The min-raiser is making it way to obvious that's he's trying to trap. I'm thinking KK or AA, or any set.
My options are;
1. Flat call feeling the initial bettor will also call, and I can get more out of min-raiser on the turn and river.
2. Raise which will get initial bettor out of the hand, loosing anymore of his money, but stopping him from drawing at a higher flush.
Min-raiser is going to call my bet no matter what. I figure I can double up off of him, but need to decide if keeping the initial bettor in the hand is worth the risk of a flush draw.
What do you do?
Comments
if you just call, will you fold when the board pairs or a heart (other than 9h...) comes? i think that will happen about 30% of the time on the turn (i suppose you could use 25% if you put one of them on 2 hearts). against a single opponent, can you be sure you are against a heart draw or set? if the board pairs or flushes, how do you know you are guessing correctly? that will also shut the opponent down if he has the other hand, so get the money in now
I'm going after the bigger stack here. If the original raiser has more - I call and let him come along, if the re-raiser has more, I raise to get along with him. If they're close, I still raise just to make him make as big a mistake as I can.
Also, given your stack size here, it's just a push now if I'm raising. Then I pray for the 9h
Mark
You must have been loving that flop.
However, if you re-raise again, lets say half your stack, you will probably get one to fold and end up with a larger pot if a heart doesn't hit.
I think you won this, or tied. What ended up happening?
are you assuming the 3rd player calls?
what hands are you most likely up against?
what do you do on the turn if a heart/pair/blank falls? how do you expect your opponents to react?
same questions for the river, assuming you get there with one or two opponents.
can you now take a stab at the ev of calling the flop?
For the record, I did not call. I reraised to $200. (with $27 back)
The reason that I did not go all-in is that the way we were positioned my stack was somewhat hidden from the other player by the dealer and I didn't want him to instantly know that I was pot committed and that he couldn't try to bluff me, if he was trying to bluff.
The first bettor did fold as I expected. The min-raiser called, and we got it all in on a brick on the turn. No heart on the river and my nut-straight beat his AA.
The more I read this thread the more I like my play, and dislike the idea of calling. Ultimately I don't think I was ever going to get away from this hand regardless of what came on turn and river, so I might as well get the money in now.
I was sure the min-raiser was going to call either way, the only question was the action of the original bettor.
if blank, all-in. pair/heart, depends what they do and your take on their likely holdings. No decision to make on the river.
Why would I put 1/3 of my stack in the pot
with (currently) the best hand and let
my opponent possibly draw out on me ?
Virtually every poker book will tell you to get your
money in the pot when you have the best hand.
If he wants to hit his flush or make a boat
with his set, he's going to have to risk his whole stack,
or atleast equal to my whole stack. (+ev)
Sometimes they suckout, thats ok.
Stay focused and win it back.
Over time you will come out ahead with this play.
Although I'd rather play small-ball...
in looser, shallow stack / small stakes NL games,
your profit is mostly from stacking / doubling up
off guys when you have the best of it.
you want to get your money in best while maximizing your profit; if you just call, come the turn, both players may now feel obligated to call your $140 push due to the huge pot. Better to triple up than double up.
There must be an amount that you need behind to make pushing on the flop more favourable than waiting to the turn? Assuming the two other players have you covered. Thoughts?
I guess I am thinking of this thread which had deeper stacks but a similiar type of situation:
http://www.pokerforum.ca/f50/raise-pot-all-whats-your-move-14984/
There are too many cards that could come on the turn that beat you. A heart could give someone a better flush, a paired board could make someone a boat and a J could make someone higher straight. Further, an A could scare off KK, while a heart, giving you a flush could scare off a less hand. Plus another straight card like 7, T or J could also kill the action.
When you slowplay you want the turn card to improve somebody's hand. This is simply not the case here and shoving will take away the nut flush draw odds and also pull in an overpair who would be drawing very thin.
Slowplaying the flop, you want a card to come that will allow someone to make a mistake on the turn. Here you want the mistake to be made on the flop and shoving is the only way to induce a mistake.
sounds like you want both players to fold if you had a choice?
The bottom line is that unless you are playing against experts, the straightforward play is usually best. And in this case it is shove the flop. It is simple and easy. It takes away future decisions which could be mistakes. I don't know why people play 1/2 NL and want to "extract" the most money. It isn't rocket science at these levels. Flopping the nuts only happens rarely and especially in the case of the nut straight that is not broadway, you are asking for trouble.
Do you think an overpair is going to fold here? And guys with a nut flush draw are going to call all-often. Please give me your analysis that shows this is not so.
depending on the stack sizes, this is not always the case. Having the ability to make future decisions can sometimes work to your advantage.
what stack size would it be most beneficial to call or raise pot, but not push? assuming the other two players have you covered?
If you raise and get one call (and here it is usually one and not two callers), you should calculate how big the pot is going to be after that. Then you have to look at how much you have remaining. If you would have something in the range of what the pot contains or less, then pushing would probably be better in the first place since a bet from your opponent would mean that you are either putting all your remaining chips in or making an incredible read and fold.
If I am building a pot on the flop, I would only leave myself a pot sized stack or less if I am intending to get it in on the turn regardless of the card or the action. And I usually only do this with a very strong made hand where most turn cards would not scare me.
One of things players tend to forget about slowplaying is that you want to keep an opponent around to make a second best hand that will pay you off. In this case, your opponent(s) are likely either going to make a best hand or not improve. The only real scenarios of them making a great second best hand would be hitting a low flush or hitting their high PP giving them a set but on a scary board.
In answer to your question about stack sizes, I would say you would need to very deep here to raise less than all-in. And like what has been pointed out here already, there are a lot of turn cards that could make you face a very difficult decsion if there is any turn action. And even if it is checked to you on the turn if the board pairs of another flush card comes up, now your opponent could very well be slowplaying his made nut flush or boat and you would be in a very sticky spot.