Cash Game Laying down Top pair...KILL ME!
So heres the story. I was playing NL texas holdem at the casino for the 3rd time of my life, i bought in for $180 at the 1$/2$ table i was up to 275 after 3 hours of very tight play. I had gotten pretty tired and my gf was waiting on me so i figured hey this next hand is my last one.....here it is.
PreFlop
I was delt KQ Suited from the cutoff position, 1 early position player who i labbeled as having a very loose preflop game considering he has reraised my raises with hands like J10 and K10, he raises to 10$ , 2 players call and when it comes to me i make it 25$, only the initial raiser calls and there is about 70$ in the pot..
Flop comes Qs Jh 4d
Yeah top pair! He raises 25$, when it comes to me i figure he either has the jack or a weaker pocket pair, or hes just making a contination bet, when it comes to me i think for 5 seconds and make it 75$!
My loose opponent takes about 2 seconds to push all in for another 150 more!
Heres where i went horribly wrong.... because of how fast he pushed and his expression i was almost sure to myself at this point that he flopped a set or 2 pair..... I never took the time to calculate the pot odds or to put him on a range of hands other than a set or 2 pair. After contemplating about 30 seconds without much real thiking i fold, for him to show pocket 9's........ I foled the best hand while getting almsot 3 to 1 preflop with top pair agaisnt this loose player....... In the end i think i was just too tired and wasnt trusting my initial reads anymore...
PreFlop
I was delt KQ Suited from the cutoff position, 1 early position player who i labbeled as having a very loose preflop game considering he has reraised my raises with hands like J10 and K10, he raises to 10$ , 2 players call and when it comes to me i make it 25$, only the initial raiser calls and there is about 70$ in the pot..
Flop comes Qs Jh 4d
Yeah top pair! He raises 25$, when it comes to me i figure he either has the jack or a weaker pocket pair, or hes just making a contination bet, when it comes to me i think for 5 seconds and make it 75$!
My loose opponent takes about 2 seconds to push all in for another 150 more!
Heres where i went horribly wrong.... because of how fast he pushed and his expression i was almost sure to myself at this point that he flopped a set or 2 pair..... I never took the time to calculate the pot odds or to put him on a range of hands other than a set or 2 pair. After contemplating about 30 seconds without much real thiking i fold, for him to show pocket 9's........ I foled the best hand while getting almsot 3 to 1 preflop with top pair agaisnt this loose player....... In the end i think i was just too tired and wasnt trusting my initial reads anymore...
Comments
If you never get bluffed you're calling too often.... think of the amount of strength he showed in this hand, EP raise, call of a re-raise out of position, betting INTO the re-raiser, and then RE-PUSHING?
I fold TPTK there easy
Mark
write a more thorough reply.
There were other mistakes made earlier in
the hand which put you in this situation,
but Folding was a mistake in my opinion.
You were (reluctantly) pot commited.
You have to think about structuring
the hand/ your bets/the size of the pot
so that you arent stuck with these tough decisions.
Either keep the pot small so you can fold without
much dificulty, or build a big pot and be willing to go all-in.
You built a big pot, but werent willing to go all-in.
In big pots you shouldnt be folding very often.
(Exception: You have a terrific read, board pairs with flush card, etc)
Putting lots of money in a pot then folding is a big mistake
and is a huge leak, or more accurately the road to overall losses.
You should be thinking in your head preflop what
you are going to do postflop. In this case...
"Against this loose player, I will commit to this hand
if I hit my K or Q, and I wont commit if I miss the flop".
You could likely have avoided this by betting differently:
smaller bets, make a small pot, you're Not commited to it.
larger bets, make a big pot, you Are commited to it (going all-in).
To Johnith, this type of analysis is fully covered in this book: Amazon.ca: Professional No-Limit Hold 'em: Volume I: Matt Flynn, Sunny Mehta, Ed Miller: Books
If you plan out how you're going to play the hand
before it unfolds, you really shouldn't find yourself
"facing a scary all in". Taking time to make your decisions
is fine, but wouldnt it be easier on your blood pressure
if you could avoid those Aww F#ck moments ?
Here's an example how you might approach a hand:
You are dealt pocket 33 in early position.
Before you do anything, you think to yourself...
"I'm going to try and get in cheap, and flop a set.
I'm willing to call a raise of up to 5 Big Blinds.
If its raised more than that preflop, I will fold.
If I miss the flop, I'm going to check/fold this baby pair.
If I hit my set, I'm going to lead out and bet 3/4 of the pot if the board
is uncoordinated. I'm totally willing to go all-in if necessary.
If its a coordinated flop (3 flush/straight), I will still bet out at it,
bet 1/2 the pot, but If I get resistance from a straightforward player,
I'm willing to fold it before I put too much $ in the pot."
Not saying this is the best/only way to play this hand,
its just an example off the top of my head,
but by making a plan, you've basically made the tough
decisions before the flop. You won't be afraid, confused,
flustered or any of those things that we feel when
someone makes a big raise into you.
The way I look at it, the Money lost in
the hand you described is well spent if you can
truely learn from it and avoid the same mistakes later.
The other thing you acknowledge
in your original post is that you were tired,
and that led to a poor decision.
It's great that you see how this was
a major factor in the end result of the hand.
I still struggle with this, even though
I know its a problem for me.
I live an hour and a half from Niagara or
Windsor. When I go, I want to play.
If I lived closer, I'd be there several times a week.
But since that's not possible, when I do go,
I want to play for as long as possible.
Its very tough for me to leave when
I'm feeling tired or the game has lost
its fishiness. It takes a lot of discipline
to take my profits and leave after a few hours,
knowing that I spent almost as much time
driving as I did playing. I can go back in my B&M
diary notes and see there were plenty of times
when I knew I should leave, take the money I won
and go home, but didnt. I stayed and ended up
giving it back because the game either changed,
I went on a cooler and/or I was fatigued and
not playing my best.
I'm much better at taking my winnings home now,
but I still have a conversation with myself in my
head convincing me to leave when I'm tired.
because this is your last hand, and you did like to go home with money. that could altert your decision.
as loose player, if he is any good, he probly lable you as tight player, and does not like to play big pot with just Top pair
but for real
even with 3-1 pot odds, it's not a bad fold
If I lose all my chips early in a session, I can re-buy and work my way back to a positive result. If I lose all my chips late in a session, I would have to rely on luck to make it back to even or better quickly. We all have limits on our playing time - fatigue, other people we travel to the game with, bankroll, etc. I know that I tighten up when I have decided to leave the game at the next session fee or the next orbit or two. Why risk the results of several hours of good play and hard work on one hand. I always remember that an average winning hand in hold 'em is two pair. I am prepared to fold top pair. I have, in the past, made the mistake of telling people that I was leaving the table soon, and it cost me. I don't make that mistake any more except possibly at friendly home games.
I recently had a discussion with Kristy_Sea and ReefAquarium about buy-in amounts at a donk-filled cash game. They were trying to convince me that I should buy-in for the $200 max at the $1-$2 game, where I had bought in for $100. The points they made were sound poker strategy, but I was in the middle of my summer-long, personal tilt-fest and argued against buying in for the maximum. Looking back on it now, I realize that the good poker decision is to buy-in for the maximum. However, I don't know if I will change my decision for this particular game. The cash game happens around a weekly tournament, and the main reason I go to the game is to play in the tournament. That means that I probably only have an hour or so to play in the cash game before the tournament starts. Depending on how well I do in the tournament, I will play anywhere from no time after I bust out (or win) to several hours. If I was looking for the most +ev results, I would probably be better served to play the cash game only. However, I like playing tournaments - so I make my decisions based on other factors. For me, I play poker because I like to play the game and I make money - in that order. If I was trying to make a living at poker, my decisions may be different.
Since the rake in that game is so high ($10), short stacking and playing very tightly preflop can lead to a the least theoretical loss in a game theory sense .... If the players were good then buying in for min (or better still not playing) would be the best strategy given such a huge rake.
BUT....
I think a confidence and bankroll boost will do wonders for your game.... You know you can beat those donks , so run roughshod over them.
I think other people have posted similar comments but let me try to break down the hand for you for future instances as I would have played it.
1. You mention the player is loose, so by definition if I go into a hand my range will be considerably tighter than his. With this said when he raises to 10 and there are trailers with you in the pot KQ at this point is not a re-raising hand. If you get squeezed you are forced to fold and you spew chips (especially if you are leaving after the hand...minor relevance)
2. Going with your raise the pot is now 70 and he bets 25 into the pot. Yes you are correct with going on the fact the player is weak. Heads up if he has any part of that board he will be checking to you allowing you to fire at the pot because you re-raised his hand so he will be trying to define your range. At the same token because you have seen him raise with a wide range you have to control pot size until you gather further information. Re-opening the betting on the flop just creates a mess because you are faced with a big decision with 2 cards to come.
3. Calling his flop bet at this point will be optimum if you have decided he has a J or weak pair (let him hang himself). Most relevant information, especially in lower limit games come on the turn because most people frequently C-Bet any flop expecting the autofold. You have called his bet and that confuses him. He will normally check the turn and that is when you fire out the exact bet he bet on the flop. I do that a lot in 5/5 and 5/10 games because it controls the pot size but it also confuses the initial aggressor because he knows what his 25.00 bet meant (in this case) but he doesn't know what your 25 dollar bet means.
If there is resistance on the turn you can narrow his range down even further and make your decision there.
I normally don't like getting all my chips in on the flop unless I have flopped a set or I can clearly identify the players range when pushing. Leaving 2 cards to come creates a higher variance situation that can be avoided and in the long term is more profitable.
And as other posts have mentioned, being bluffed is no big deal. It happens to me a lot of times as well, but I rarely am the one getting stacked at the end of the day. It is usually the villian
Good post. But why does it read like a poem?
You don't need
to hit 'enter'
after every line