Angleshooting attempt?
Live 1/3(200max)NL game... I'm in seat 9 and act first, villian is in seat 2... All 7 players are regulars... I flop 2 pair, bet the pot, $30 (flush draw board) get called by seat 1 and villian... Turns a heart and the board is now double suited... I bet $90... Both called... River's a third heart... Checked to villian who starts to coffee house... Blah blah blah... I stop listening... Blah blah blah... And throws out $14 in chips...
To clarify the situation, villain has only $14 in chips, but has 2 or 3 hundreds back. I say "call" and toss $14 out in front of me.. Dealer turns to seat 1, who folds... now at this point, villian has a bill in his hand and is asking if I have the ace-high flush... I turn over my 2-pair, replying "No." Villian shows the king-high flush and now want $114 from me!?!
"I don't think so, Tim!" Villian insists he said 114, I insist I heard 14, seat 1 pipes in saying he heard 114... No one else says anything... Dealer just sits there, head down... I yell "floor"... arguing continues! Floor arrives... gets the short version from seat 2 which goes like this... "I bet 114 on the river, he said call!"
The dealer now wakes up and aggrees with the villain... WTF?!? "Whoa whoa whoa," says I, "He (villian) put out $14, I heard $14, I did say 'call', but clearly I meant to call $14. I put out $14 and the dealer who is now claiming she heard $114, did not correct me or even flinch when I put out $14, but simply moved on to seat 1 for his action!... And he (villian) never corrected anything until after the hand was over he he was sure he'd won!"
Floor ruled in my favour, villian left in a huff, and this dealer will not get any more tips from me! Run the fucking game already!
Clearly an angle in case I have the nut flush?? I doubt we hear about the hundred if I turn over the nuts!
To clarify the situation, villain has only $14 in chips, but has 2 or 3 hundreds back. I say "call" and toss $14 out in front of me.. Dealer turns to seat 1, who folds... now at this point, villian has a bill in his hand and is asking if I have the ace-high flush... I turn over my 2-pair, replying "No." Villian shows the king-high flush and now want $114 from me!?!
"I don't think so, Tim!" Villian insists he said 114, I insist I heard 14, seat 1 pipes in saying he heard 114... No one else says anything... Dealer just sits there, head down... I yell "floor"... arguing continues! Floor arrives... gets the short version from seat 2 which goes like this... "I bet 114 on the river, he said call!"
The dealer now wakes up and aggrees with the villain... WTF?!? "Whoa whoa whoa," says I, "He (villian) put out $14, I heard $14, I did say 'call', but clearly I meant to call $14. I put out $14 and the dealer who is now claiming she heard $114, did not correct me or even flinch when I put out $14, but simply moved on to seat 1 for his action!... And he (villian) never corrected anything until after the hand was over he he was sure he'd won!"
Floor ruled in my favour, villian left in a huff, and this dealer will not get any more tips from me! Run the fucking game already!
Clearly an angle in case I have the nut flush?? I doubt we hear about the hundred if I turn over the nuts!
Comments
Angle shoot.
Did I say that out loud?
At no point did the bill leave his hand, or touch the felt... and he didn't even take it out until after his chips went in and I had already called.
Seat 1 heard him say 114, and I would take him as an impartial witness. After the hub-bub died away and seat 2 left, and the dealers had pushed seat 1 commented that the "hundred and" part of the bet was in a little lower voice than the "14" part. He also speculated that the hundred probably doesn't get mentioned if I raise!
He also mentioned that if the dealer says she didn't hear the "hundred" the dealer has no fault in anything that transpires later... but having mentioned that she heard the $114, she hangs herself for not making sure the bets are right before moving along with the action.
You can certainly do this... and you are responsible to make sure your opponents call is correct before reveling your hand.
Very possible, since apparently seat 1 heard him... clearly I did not, nor any other player, except for the player seated right beside him.
Since the dealer watched me throw 2 reds and 4 yellow chip out with my stated call, and having heard 114... I would hope they would, perhaps, hopefully, notice that I was in no way cutting any more chips out of the gigantic pyramid that surrounded my neatly folded hands, and my cards.
Very often we may see a player state an amount, and wait, pushing nothing into the pot... seldom, if ever, have I seen someone state an amount, and put out only a portion of the stated amount... Is this a common occurrence at Fallsview?
[x] valid point
Where's the part where he started counting out bill in my post?
Maybe you should start understanding what you read... you know, the part where you interpret the actual meaning of the words on the screen/paper instead of using the literal word as your defense!
... but since you are a survivor of the total perspective vortex... I hold out little hope!
12. Because the amount of a wager at big-bet poker has such a wide range, a player who has taken action based on a gross misunderstanding of the amount wagered may receive some protection by the decision-maker. A "call" or “raise” may be ruled not binding if it is obvious that the player grossly misunderstood the amount wagered, provided no damage has been caused by that action. Example: Player A bets $300, player B reraises to $1200, and Player C puts $300 into the pot and says, “call.” It is obvious that player C believes the bet to be only $300 and he should be allowed to withdraw his $300 and reconsider his wager. A bettor should not show down a hand until the amount put into the pot for a call seems reasonably correct, or it is obvious that the caller understands the amount wagered. The decision-maker is allowed considerable discretion in ruling on this type of situation. A possible rule-of-thumb is to disallow any claim of not understanding the amount wagered if the caller has put eighty percent or more of that amount into the pot.
Example: On the end, a player puts a $500 chip into the pot and says softly, “Four hundred.” The opponent puts a $100 chip into the pot and says, “Call.” The bettor immediately shows the hand. The dealer says, “He bet four hundred.” The caller says, “Oh, I thought he bet a hundred.” In this case, the recommended ruling normally is that the bettor had an obligation to not show the hand when the amount put into the pot was obviously short, and the “call” can be retracted. Note that the character of each player can be a factor. (Unfortunately, situations can arise at big-bet poker that are not so clear-cut as this.)
Unfortunately, just like the Supreme Court of Canada can have 5-to-4 split decisions with all nine judges having different viewpoints, you may get different judgements depending on the supervisor. For example, I have had at least three instances at Fallsview where a floor made a wrong ruling against me so I had to appeal to a more knowledgeable floor who knew that I was right.
Thank god... for a second there I found myself being persuaded to 13cards' argument about the guy angle shooting and I was wondering if I was getting sick... but then his statement about "may receiving protection" solidified that he'd bend the OP over the table ASAP made me feel better
Mark
P.S. It could be a possibility that "softly" announcing your bet is angle shooting... eg... hrm... blah blah blah... I guess one FOURTEEN is a good bet
"I'm having difficulty controlling THE VOLUME OF MY VOICE!"
And you would...?
Trust me ... you will never get the chance to rule this way on a hand of mine!! ... which is funny, since I seem to be an angleshooting ass, who should love the opportunities that the Fallsview Casino would offer!!
On a related side note, I may be at Seneca during the holiday weekend!
Zing!... notice the ability to recognize insults, no matter how subtle!
You heard $14 and you called. I will disagree with 13CARDS on one point since I really don't think you owe this guy $100 as it seems like an honest mistake by you and not a result of you "not listening".
If you won the pot I think you are right that he would not say a word if the dealer only took $14 from him and pushed it to you (this is assuming you still only call the bet). But again that depends on the person and I would have to be there to have a better opinion.
As a side note: wtf does Fallsview Casino have to do with your hand?
Mark
I like the OP since sometimes I fall into the trap of not paying attention at the table and this just reminds me that this is something I have to work on (yes some of us part timers need reminding). I think that if anyone ever bets $14 into me in a $360 dollar pot I would definitely confirm this with the player or the dealer first. I am gonna play the classic noob card here and say this post might not matter to most of you but a noob can probably learn something.
But when half of a thread is not even about the OP then how can that ever happen?
Sometimes it's not the quantity of error made, but rather the quality.
This one was a doozy and the root of the issue here.
I do understand that squaring the pot takes time, but I think the extra few seconds is worth the misunderstanding here.
I would also say that allowing the players to bicker back and forth and not calling the floor his/herself was another failing of the dealer in this case. Take control of your table, please.
As others have mentioned, it's likely the villain in this case meant to bet $114 as $14 isn't any kind of real bet with a made flush, it's not even a 'I want my oppt to raise me here so I can re-raise'-sized bet.
I'm surprised the floor ruled in favour of the OP especially since the villain, seat 1 and the dealer agreed it was $114.
It looks like the villain said 114 and it was heard by seat 1 and the dealer, but not the OP.
By putting out only 14 when he bet 114, the villain created an ambiguous situation.
The OP said , "Call" and put out only $14.
I don't think the OP was angle shooting, I think he honestly believed the bet was only $14 into a ~$300 pot...
The dealer compounded the problem by moving on and not confirming the call size when the OP put out only $14.
If you don't understand the bet correctly and you say, "Call" are you responsible for the bet?