The Next Step?
Hi. I've been playing on-line now for about 6 months and am generally a decent beginner tournie/SNG player with a slowly climbing bankroll. I generally start TAG and loosen up my starting hands as the numbers dwindle. In tournies I usually bubble or just make it into the money (low buy-ins at moment). To me it is obvious that I am searching for the next weapon in my arsenal. I steal blinds when I can, and make stabs at pots when people check (and I haven't hit). I try to take advantage of position, however when early positions raise 3x BB and I have squat........
Not certain if its playing too conservative, or not reckless enough, or not re-raising to steal.....
It seems it is always the same people who finish high on the leaderboard every week... I'm certain its not all luck..... They have obviously taken their game to next level and I'm looking for advice to bring my game to next level..... I feel I'm on the verge but just can't find it.....
Thanks for any advice....
Not certain if its playing too conservative, or not reckless enough, or not re-raising to steal.....
It seems it is always the same people who finish high on the leaderboard every week... I'm certain its not all luck..... They have obviously taken their game to next level and I'm looking for advice to bring my game to next level..... I feel I'm on the verge but just can't find it.....
Thanks for any advice....
Comments
Anyway, here is how I play, and it's kind of based on the table and how tight it is.
First of all, the players are loose at these tables to begin with. The players you are talking about that get the chip leads early from the 'lucky' all-in calls and bets are simply as you say, lucky. The chances of them making it in the money is low, so let them kill eachother off and try to double up when you can. You seem to be doing this early already, so keep it up.
I had the same problem as you though. Not being able to figure out how to play when you are in the money is frustrating. I can't give you a specific way to play. You just have to feel each table out.
So, when you are early in these tournaments, play only good hands. Play your really good starting hands aggressively (raise pre-flop to get as many people out of the hand as you can) and if you hit, go all-in. So, raise with AA-KK-QQ-JJ, or maybe even AK suited. I find that a lot of players have a hard time throwing this hand away, though. Be careful with AK hands, especially if they aren't suited. From there, limp in with suited connectors or lower pairs.
Anyway, when the blinds go up and there are still some loose players left, only play the really big hands. Don't play low pairs or suited connectors. Raise a lot with good hands in hopes to get only one caller.
Then, when everyone is fighting for a money spot, I like to give the image that I am a loose player. I usually have a decent chip stack at this point, not because I play a lot of hands, but because I play good hands and get callers on them. Even if I don't lead in the chip department, I make sure everyone has to pay to see the flop when I have a good hand. If players with not many chips are my only competitors, I like to lean on them and raise their blinds. They usually fold in hopes to catch a better hand, but they seem to play crappy starting hands in hopes to hit. At this point if I see a flop and I hit, I usually try to push players that are low in chips all-in.
Anyway, I play smart at this time and this is the time that I am paying the most attention to the way players are playing. People change their playing styles at this point in time, and it's always different depending on chip stack sizes. If everyone is equal, I find it best to kind of wait it out, but steal some blinds when you have decent hands. Don't get too crazy, cause you will just end up losing your money. People like to slow play hands at this time in these stakes. Make sure you keep that in the back of your mind when trying to steal some blinds.
When it's down to 3 players, I play quite a bit looser (I play and sometimes raise suited connecters and raise any pair). I'll fold to almost any raise if I haven't hit and I have less than 8 outs. Also, that depends on the raise. If I'm on a nut flush draw post-flop, I'll play it like I have the nuts! If I have the A-x suited, and there are two of that suit on the flop and/or on the turn, I will raise like I have 3 aces. Sometimes I will try to push all-in. The reason being, if I do hit and he goes all in, I have him and I become chip leader for sure. If I miss and he calls, I might loose, but at least I am 3rd. I find it better to be 1st or 3rd. Play aggressive when only 3 people are left and make sure you either have a huge lead going into heads up or lose to be 3rd. I mean, for a 9 man table at stars, it's 4.50 for first, then 2.70 for second if i'm not mistaken, and 1.80 for 3rd. I think this is right. Either way, 1st is a lot more than 2nd or 3rd, so I like to aim for first. I seem to get 1st more often if I lean on the player with the fewest chips when there are 3 of us left and force him to make decisions for all of his chips. I also steal a lot of his blinds. Again, the blinds will be high at this time, so it will benefit a lot to steal them.
Overall I have noticed that it's not good to flat out bluff people in these games. I never pull a flat out bluff. I always have quite a few outs if I bluff where I can force someone all-in if I hit. To be honest, I usually only bluff if I have suited connectors and end up on a flush AND straight draw after the flop. If I've got A-x suited, I'll bluff if I have 2 of that suit on the board. I'm more aggressive with a bluff than I am if I hit though.
But yeah, the hardest part of these games is to get into that top 3. It's different at every table in these stakes because of the difference in play from the players. Sometimes you seem to get a table full of loose-aggressive players that play this way right until the end. It's frustrating to see someone like this, especially because you come up with a strategy and it doesn't factor in this type of play. All you have to do is stay tight against these players and you will eventually double up on them. They will try to bluff you when you hit a monster hand. Just play the huge hands against them.
Anyway, those are my experiences and the way I play. I'm currently increasing my bankroll and just moved up to the $3 9 man tables. I came 3rd in the first and only one I played and hope to be successful at this level. People seem to play a bit tighter at this level, but always remember that a lot of these players push all in with A-x suited, and soemtimes non-suited. So, if an A hits on the flop and you have KK, and there are 2 or more people, FOLD!!! If you don't hit a king and an A hits the board, chances are you are going to get a 'bad beat' and lose a lot of chips. That's the biggest mistake I see when playing against these loose players.
I hope this helps. I am very new to poker and so far I love it!! I have only been playing for a few months and can't get enough of it. At work all I do is read about how to play then go home and apply what I have learned. So, from my experience and 'fast' learning, the best thing to do is read as much as you can about playing and apply it to your play. Be patient at the tables and pay attention to what is going on. If you get bored, read some stuff about poker at your desk, and be comfortable. However, when you are playing, don't be interactive with your learning. For example, don't post on here while playing. You will get too distracted. Patience is the key!!! Most people lose in tournament play online simply because they play too many hands. Your first goal is to make it in the money, then after that make it to first! That's why I end up first or third. Acutally, this is what Roy Rounder said is the best way to think of it. First or 3rd, not second.
So, now that all the pros see my advice, do any of you have advice for me? Again, these are my experiences and I am very new to this, so I am still learning and have a load of stuff to learn. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!
Thanks.
EDIT!!!
I also wanted to add that all of this is based on positioning. Especially when late in the game, positioning is the most important thing. Throwing out a raise post-flop when on the button and getting callers tells you a lot about the hands others may have when there are only a few of your left. Especially if it's a decent raise. Expect these players to be on a huge draw or a big hand already. Like I said, people seem to like to slow-play a lot at these stakes and when there aren't many people left. Try to slow play your big hands too though. It seems to help a lot. For example, if I get dealt KK and a K hits on the flop, I will wait for a bit then check. People seem to figure I was debating a bluff and assume I have a small pair, especially because I likely put a small raise pre-flop. I never limp in with KK. I want to get as many people out of the hand as I can pre-flop with KK. Especially those A-x players that want to limp in to see an ace on the flop. Those are your most dangerous enemies when you have KK. So, put a good raise to get them out.
Anyway, when there are 3 people left, I'll raise and hopefully get only one caller. If I hit nothing on the flop, I will raise. Even if I am early in position, I'll raise. Even if an A hits, I want to see if someone else has one too, so I raise. That's the best tell in online poker in my opinion. So, raise and see who calls. If they call and there is an A on the flop, you can bet they have an A too and they will call all the way to the river. This also gives you a free river card most of the time in hopes to hit a K.
Back on track though! If I do hit a K on the flop, i'll play it slow and hope an A comes up. I'll check to look weak. Hopefully the player will hit something on the flop or the turn and raise me. That's when I throw in a small re-raise to try to act like I am bluffing him. If he takes the bait, he is usually extremely pot committed at this time. Put in one more raise if you can and then put him all in. In other words, I'll slow play the hand in hopes of a raise, then slowly raise him to all-in. Try to squeeze as many chips out of him as you can. That's what makes the difference in these tournaments. A lot of the time it's how you play your hands. Give yourself the best chances of winning and try to milk as many chips as you can out of other people. Your goal is to almost always end up seeing the river with only one player and you having the best hand. The more players seeing the river, the more chance you have to get a 'bad beat'.
Try to think about how people read you and apply that to your game as well. Look at betting patterns and try to make people think you are playing a different way than you actually are. Use the chat feature to try to throw your player off, but DO NOT BE AN A$$HOLE WITH THE CHAT FEATURE, EVER!!! If you bluff someone and decide to show your cards, throw a little 'lol' to them on the chat feature. They will think you think you are cocky and they will think you don't know how to play, so they will call you on your poket aces all-in pre-flop raise. I personally think the ability to show your cards sometimes is one of the best features of the tables. Don't muck every single one of your hands. Let players think you are a fish when you aren't. Show them some of your semi-bluffs when they fold and hope they hit something, but folded thinking you had the nuts. Again, only do this stuff late in the tournament after the real fish are gone.
I think i posted a lot, so hopefully people give me a lot of advice!!!
Thanks again.
And Adpro, that is some post, you obviously put a lot of time and effort into it. I wish more of us would put more thought and content into our posts.....
MTT is multi-table tournaments?
Well, I play some of those too. I generally start the 360 man 0.10 game at the same time as my first 9 man sit and go tournament. I play tight-aggressive through the entire thing until the final table. I usually place somewhere in the 20's, so I make my money back, but I only place within the bigger money if I get some lucky cards and multiple calls on my all-in raises.
I would like some advice on these tables though. I seem to get blinded out on these ones if I play very tight and aggressively bet. I tried to mix up my play and raise pre-flop with almost any pair, but I always seem to lose too many chips when doing this. So, yeah, that's a good thing to focus on. I guess my goal has always been to make it to the final table, then play depending on my chip stack and the general playing style.
In your experiences with final tables with, lets say a 45 man tournament, are there still loose players? Like are there some fish at the final table still, or does it end up with a bunch of decent and maybe tight players? Are there more bluffs, or can you bluff more? I'm going to play a 45 man game tonight and see how it goes.
Untitled Document
That's a good document! Thanks.
I've noticed that there are A LOT of abbreviations in the poker world. I have a few sites bookmarked in order to keep up on them, and that one is a new one, so thank you very much. I'm also creating an abbreviation page on my own poker site, just so I can learn as many of them as I can.
Thanks for the link.
Yeah, when going up against only one other person I always raise pre-flop every hand at least one small raise, unless I have 2-7os. Although, one time someone raised, I had 2-7 off suit, and I called cause I was largely ahead in chips and the flop ended up 7 7 2. He pushed me all in. That was quite the crazy hand!
Post flop, I kind of base it on what playing style the other player has. I take a lot of stabs at pots and take a lot of them before the turn and river. Then, once the other player sees what I am doing, I slowly tighten up a bit. It seems to work as he gets a bit looser in his playing. Eventually, if the game goes long enough, he goes all in with a crappy hand like A-6 off suit and I take all of his chips with my pair of jacks. That's what happened in the last tournament I played in.
So, yeah, I agree. As you get down to less players (3 or more), bluffing can happen and taking stabs at pots will benefit. I still keep to the large raises when I'm holding a draw though. Larger than if I actually hit something. I sometimes play my big hits the same, at the beginning, as if I were to play a nothing hand, if he doesn't raise. Then I mix it up.
Either way, it all depends on the player or the situation. I like to be the better rather than caller in heads up. It seems to be more profitable.
Back to the MTTs......
A somewhat similar thing happened to me yesterday.
I was playing the low (0.10) buy in MTT on stars yesterday while I was playing one of the 1 table 3.40 buy ins on stars. I had K T suited and the flop hit with a rainbow 9 7 T. I checked, as did everyone else. Next card was K. No flush or straights for anyone that I could see. Maybe a straight draw, but I bet anyway. Everyone folds but one guy, who calls. He, from his history, was calling crazy stuff, so I decided to put him all-in. He called and flipped over K 9 os. River comes up with a 9.
Again, this is a good reason why I am going to stick to playing only AA-KK-QQ-JJ, limp in with lower pairs and suited connectors to catch hidden hands sometimes, and play AK according to position. I was playing a lot more hands in the MTT game this time and it didn't seem to work.
Either way, I was doing well in the 9 man SNG game. I came 4th this time, so not in the money, but I was still doing well. I also played 2 heads up SNG and won both. I think I like heads up best.
But yeah, I would like to get better at MTT's for sure. I think I need to research them more. Any advice on any of the MTT questions in here would be greatly appreciated. What types of starting hands do you feel comfortable playing and what starting hands seem to work? Should you be risking more at the beginning of an MTT, or should you be very tight at the beginning? Is it still good to be tight and very aggressive when you hit a big hand?
Definitely, I second that... really great post adpro!
Thanks. I must have missed compuease's post somehow, but thank you both. I tend to write pretty much everything I am thinking, haha. It helps me a lot though. You'll likely see a lot of me.
Update
Make that 2 final tables out of 5 tournies today. Placed 6th in this one. Seem to have found what works for me:-)
It may be the best writing in the history of poker...but I'll never know, nor will anyone else.
Two paragraphs or less is the norm Adpro...we've got the attention spans of 4 year olds who've lost their ritalin up in here.
Nice!! What stakes were you playing for? Care to post some hands or advice? What hands were you playing? How often did you raise and what hands did you raise? Did you go in with any different thoughts?
Lol, I am the same way, but I seem to love to type long messages. I assure you it isn't the best writing in the history of poker. I'm still a beginning myself.
No problem. I still need to apply a lot of what I say to the way I play, haha!
Welcome to the forum!