AK, flop a K, line check here.

Chuckieland

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $25.05
Hero (UTG): $75.20
MP: $36.25
CO: $51.65
BTN: $81.05
SB: $135.65

Pre Flop: Hero is UTG with A K
Hero raises to $1.75, MP calls $1.75, CO calls $1.75, 3 folds

Flop: ($6.00) 9 K 8(3 players)
Hero bets $4, MP calls $4, CO calls $4

Turn: ($18.00) 4(3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets $15, Hero folds, MP folds

MP 54/21/2 Laggy, but pay attention.
we tangle quiet a bit, but he does not get out of line, like all-in bluff with air.
CO: 22/18/3.5 look decent. i know him play very aggressive on flop he is tryp that would raise that flop with any draw, and slow down big time on turn and river.

MP i put him on any pair and flush draw/ straight draw. or two pair draw.
CO: since he didn't squeeze that flop... hand in his range i only beat KQ, KJ.
I know he is passive at turn and river. so that big size turn bet look very like sizing. perhaps set?
that was my read, i could be totally off. what should i do next time with TPTK here?

DrTyore

I don't hate the fold...

If you never get bluffed yadda yadda yadda....

Mark

cadillac

CO is pretty aggressive at 3.5 so heads up he is likely going to raise most of his big draws. In this spot with multi-way action I can see him calling the flop for $4 with $14.25 in the pot with a straight or club draw here. 2 pair or a set is going to protect his hand and raise the flop with 2 clubs and an OESD for anyone holding JT.


Folding is not your worst option here but against someone with these types of stats you can often check/call both the turn and the river and showdown the best hand.


FWIW I like checking the turn here alot.

DonkJedi

Looking at two clubs on the flop, if the villains have a set I am thinking a check raise to shut it down before the turn is somewhat more probable. Range of hands given their numbers might be any pocket pair, non-suited ace paint, KQ and even KJ on a position call. Not sure I can see TJ here or QT but its always funny how people can surprise you sometimes.

The check on the turn might have been taken for weakness and the villain may have just used up some juice to pick up a moderate pot.

I think a check re-raise here on the turn is a tough move to make given your read though so its a really hard line to work through. With someone to act after you that just puts it that much worse. Being out of position and given that your not sure where the villains are on the hand I would suggest about a 2/5 to 1/2 pot bet on the turn to see where you are. A big re-raise is cut and run. A flat call might be a big draw or a slow play. A fold by both is best result.

Hard line there based on the numbers. What were your numbers again? What was your image? This is an excellent post imo it has me thinking.

JimmyHo

not familiar w the player stats; that's a tough fold; why did you not raise on the turn? were you planning on check-raising and decided otherwise based on the amount of the initial raise? if the stacks are deeper, I'm reraising here to see where I really stand.

Chuckieland

DonkJedi wrote: »

Looking at two clubs on the flop, if the villains have a set I am thinking a check raise to shut it down before the turn is somewhat more probable. Range of hands given their numbers might be any pocket pair, non-suited ace paint, KQ and even KJ on a position call. Not sure I can see TJ here or QT but its always funny how people can surprise you sometimes.

The check on the turn might have been taken for weakness and the villain may have just used up some juice to pick up a moderate pot.

I think a check re-raise here on the turn is a tough move to make given your read though so its a really hard line to work through. With someone to act after you that just puts it that much worse. Being out of position and given that your not sure where the villains are on the hand I would suggest about a 2/5 to 1/2 pot bet on the turn to see where you are. A big re-raise is cut and run. A flat call might be a big draw or a slow play. A fold by both is best result.

Hard line there based on the numbers. What were your numbers again? What was your image? This is an excellent post imo it has me thinking.

player stats VPIP/PFR/AGG
VPIP is how often villian enter the pot so 54% mean he play 54% of hand that dealt to him.
Preflop raise % is how often he raise preflop.
AGG=aggressive level. anything above 2 is aggressive.
my image Tight Aggressive, but MP know my raise and bet/check are meanless (we tangle alot, he fight back)

Chuckieland

pokerJAH wrote: »

not familiar w the player stats; that's a tough fold; why did you not raise on the turn? were you planning on check-raising and decided otherwise based on the amount of the initial raise? if the stacks are deeper, I'm reraising here to see where I really stand.

i didn't want to go broke with TPTK
villians....if they don't have me beat already, they have great odds to beat me by the river (straight draw plus flush draw)
maybe i give villian too much credit

JimmyHo

Chuckieland wrote: »

i didn't want to go broke with TPTK
villians....if they don't have me beat already, they have great odds to beat me by the river (straight draw plus flush draw)
maybe i give villian too much credit

I'm raising pot here on the turn; too many draws that I want to make him pay to see the last card; if I'm beat by trips or two pairs, so be it. Not sure why you checked on the turn after betting on the flop and pre-flop? I think he senses weakness with that check.

DrTyore

This is the standard "big hand big pot / small hand small pot" phenomenon.

Hero has a small hand, and is trying to control the pot size... if you keep trying to "hero call" with TPTK, you're going to lose a lot of $.

Mark

DonkJedi

sorry chuckie - should have been more clear. I know the numbers (Im a pt junkie). Just wanted to know what your numbers were. also - and this is just an observation: 25% or more of player claim to be tight aggressive aggressive while the pt database disputes this heavily. roughly 3% or so of players at 25nl and 50nl are actually fit the stone cold killer "TAG".

Chuckieland

DonkJedi wrote: »

sorry chuckie - should have been more clear. I know the numbers (Im a pt junkie). Just wanted to know what your numbers were. also - and this is just an observation: 25% or more of player claim to be tight aggressive aggressive while the pt database disputes this heavily. roughly 3% or so of players at 25nl and 50nl are actually fit the stone cold killer "TAG".

i see
sry i misunderstood you
i am not sure if CO datamine at all
my over image is 17/12/4.
on that table, i was playing 22/15, and 3bet 11%.
this is because i'm trying to isolate MP, and try to play more pot against him.
i won't say i'm a tag, because i am abit on the tight/passive side.
for the players who know that, i loose up and play wide range.

DonkJedi

with those numbers, and if you think they are paying attention than absolutely I would fire a second barrel on the turn here.

JimmyHo

anyone have access to online player stats for cash games? I be interested to see my VPIP/PFR/AGG stats for certain sites.

Chuckieland

pokerJAH wrote: »

anyone have access to online player stats for cash games? I be interested to see my VPIP/PFR/AGG stats for certain sites.

no such thing available (that is legit)
if you play my stake at FTP or prima
i may have you
username and site. i'll look it up

Pantsonfire

Chuckieland wrote: »

Full Tilt Poker $0.25/$0.50 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

BB: $25.05
Hero (UTG): $75.20
MP: $36.25
CO: $51.65
BTN: $81.05
SB: $135.65

Pre Flop: Hero is UTG with A K
Hero raises to $1.75, MP calls $1.75, CO calls $1.75, 3 folds

Flop: ($6.00) 9 K 8(3 players)
Hero bets $4, MP calls $4, CO calls $4

Turn: ($18.00) 4(3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO bets $15, Hero folds, MP folds

MP 54/21/2 Laggy, but pay attention.
we tangle quiet a bit, but he does not get out of line, like all-in bluff with air.
CO: 22/18/3.5 look decent. i know him play very aggressive on flop he is tryp that would raise that flop with any draw, and slow down big time on turn and river.

MP i put him on any pair and flush draw/ straight draw. or two pair draw.
CO: since he didn't squeeze that flop... hand in his range i only beat KQ, KJ.
I know he is passive at turn and river. so that big size turn bet look very like sizing. perhaps set?
that was my read, i could be totally off. what should i do next time with TPTK here?

It's too bad you checked the turn because that position bet by CO could really mean a lot of things and now it's too expensive to find out.

Chuckieland

Pantsonfire wrote: »

It's too bad you checked the turn because that position bet by CO could really mean a lot of things and now it's too expensive to find out.

yes, part of my mistake is give up the lead.
i could of make alot smaller bet to see the river.
but thing is
when i bet small, MP call, CO call.
now pot is bigger then my stack.
am i happy to call a shove at the river ?
if i lead out on the safe river, got shovel on, pot odds is good for TPTK. but chance of been good is verly slim.
if i check the river, villian shove......
at this hand, i'm not looking to go all-in unless i know i'm good, and induce bluff.
so if i'm not looking to go allin, why put more money into pot? what exactly am i hoping for?
please go see that AQ hand.
almost the same situation

SirWatts

I'd shove over his turn bet. It doesn't make sense for him to be slowplaying such a draw-heavy flop and when it checks to him in position on the turn he can easily be bluffing with a draw or trying to protect a worse hand that he thinks is best. I'd need a very good read that his big bets on later streets are always monsters to fold this.

_obv_

After a bet and a call on the flop CO isnt gonna be calling with a better hand than you on such a draw heavy board. I think he shows up with draws and KQ/KJ type hands pretty much always. I would just continue firing on the turn but as played i think shoving > calling. I'm never folding this spot without a very specific read.