Biggest Mistakes Players Make?
Hey David,
What do you think the biggest mistakes many poker players make, which lead to them not being profitable? Also, what was the best advice anyone ever gave you, which has helped you make the most money playing poker?
Graham
What do you think the biggest mistakes many poker players make, which lead to them not being profitable? Also, what was the best advice anyone ever gave you, which has helped you make the most money playing poker?
Graham
Comments
GF
Ghetto, could you possibly elaborate on your earlier post?
cash game - biggest mistake, learn how to fold, and learn how to bluff.
Tourny- can't tell you, i'm a losing player at tournment.
P.S: i think i play tourny good, i just can't win that important all-in. one that if you win, i'll be in really good position to take down the tourny, but will out or consider out if you lose.
biggest mistakes I see in cash games are: bluffing at the wrong time (bad board or bad position) or against the wrong player (i.e calling station), the desperation push (running low on chips so pushing with any pair, Ax, etc.), and not using position to their advantage. Also, falling in love with top pair.
You may ask what about loose aggressive play? Well loose aggressive play actually takes even more discipline because to be successful at LAG play you need to spot a whole lot of right opportunities and that takes exceptional observation and skill.
Chuckie,
You're definitly right about cash games and the need for players to learn to fold. One of the huge problems I see with tournament players trying to play cash games is they dont fold enough. In cash games you have to fold often when you feel you could be ahead. Calling to often is a massive error. Late in tournament play folding too much is a huge error and if you feel there's a decent chance you may be ahead you have to call many times in marginal spots.
Your P.S. statement is the comment I hear constantly from people who come to me for coaching. 99% of the time(not an exageration I really mean 99% of the time) you're failing to pick up chips in spots where a better player would and in turn when you lose that key race or get bad beat you dont have the chips left to recover. Where as someone who accumulated chips better would be able to come back from the unlucky situation often. Let's try a question that will demonstrate my point. Let's say you're in the mid stages of the $50 buyin $50k guar on stars and you have a 35BB stack how often do you plan to be stealing from utg and utg+1?
BTW, please forgive me in advance for putting you on the spot. I'm here to help you all get better not to be a dick.
As to your question about whether it's for cash games or tournaments, David exclusively teaches and primarily plays tournaments. I've played mtt's profesionally for two years. In January switched to full ring NL cash games. I had pretty much never played cash before and was awful at it. I took 2 lessons with an NL cash pro right at the beginning because I felt I was missing something. He helped me get the mindset figured out and I quickly got full ring figured out. I made $10k at 200NL(and a very small number of hands at 400NL) in January at full ring and now am regularly playing 400NL and 600NL on stars and ftp and 1000NL on cakepoker(all full ring). I'll be happy to answer mtt or cash game questions. I also am pretty well known for teaching 45man strategy as well so I'll be happy to answer questions on that too.
Lack of patience is what i think you were trying to point out. Please correct me if i'm wrong. Pretty well self explanatory...nuff said:):):):):):):)
This is the point at which I became officially super-extra-ultra excited about the new addition to the forum!
(Though if you could be convinced to be a dick and max. laughs- as well as just posting staightforward responses sans the forum-norm amount of ass kissing, that'd be hot too.)
WTG Graham and welcome to the forum Herschelw!
Will you please explain the 'mindset' difference between cash and tourney that you mentioned?
Edit: GOD D@#M F#@#$ng Computer!!!!!!!
By Kristy_Sea
tournament play = "When in doubt raise or reraise"
Cash game play = "When in doubt fold or call"
Granted as tournament players become more focused on pot control and the online structures get better and better they do to some degree converge in terms of the way we have to think about tournament play vs cash game play. By converge I mean that the two mindsets become more alike.
I'm sure that explanation is both oversimplified in a way and also sort of difficult to understand but it's my best attempt to explain what I'm talking about without writing a 5 page essay.
I started out playing ring games, then read Roy Rounders books on tournament play and all that. They seemed to help me a lot. Have you read these books? What do you think about them? EDIT: After reading these books I switched to playing tournament games. I wasn't all that successfully in ring games, but I was just learning.
Basically for tournaments (8-10 man) he pretty much says to be super tight pre-flop and when you hit a big hand, be super aggressive (like all-in aggressive when you know people will call you). Then near the end of the tournament loosen up a bit and start stealing some blinds when they players get tighter (usually when there are 5 or less). At this time the blinds are quite a bit bigger, so stealing them ends up raising your stack quite a bit.
I have been playing like this and I have been winning most of the tournaments I go in. I am playing for very small stakes at stars at the moment in order to learn, cause I literally just started playing poker. But, I seem to be pretty successful and can't wait to increase my bankroll to get to those higher stakes games.
From a beginner standpoint, and a side-note, I personally think, from my experiences anyway, the biggest mistake must be people playing in stakes that are too large for their bankroll.
Here is my question though, since I am curious.
What do you think the reason for the difference between play in ring games and tournaments? Is it the way players play? Is it because you are going to get way more callers in a tournament? Is it because tournament players are way looser than ring game players? Or, is it because people play more hands in tournaments?
Thanks for the advice though. We really appreciate it!
First, the blind levels in a tournament increase and thus you are going to find yourself in an increasingly desparate situation as the tourney goes along. As a side result of this, stack sizes in tournaments mean quite a bit with regard to how you should play and how your opponents are likely to be playing. Thus, you will need to make plays that you would never make in a cash game and the plays you make are closely related to stack sizes and blind levels (along with other secondary considerations like average stack size, number of players left, payout structure, etc.).
Second, when you lose all your chips your tournament is over (assuming no rebuys of course). Thus, the decisions when you or your opponent are putting in all the chips take on a different meaning than in a cash game where you simply reload if hit the felt.
In a cash game, if you are out of the hand, you have no investment in what happens to the opponents who are in it. In a tourney, even if you have folded, you have a investment in the hand. As an easy example, if one player knocks out another your chances have improved and thus your "equity" in the tourney has improved.
This leads to some interesting considerations. In a cash game, if a player moved all-in heads up preflop on you and then turned over his AKs and you had QQ, you would call every time. It would be a clearly winning play regardless of the blinds or the action to that point. However, in a tourney, this is not always the case. Winning the most money is the goal of both games. But in a tourney, sometimes folding as a 55% favourite would actually win you more money in the long run. This is due to the prize structure and bubble situations and the nonlinearity of chip values in tournament play.
This can be shown using an extreme example (one that is highly unlikely but clear in the math). There are three players, you have 1100 chips and the other two players have 1,000,000 chips. First prize is $10,000, second is $3000 and third is $0. The blinds are 500/1000 and you post the big blind and have 100 chips left. Here is the surprise. The button moves in and SB calls!!. You have to realize that you don't even have to look at your cards here and that you need to fold. You have an overwhelming lock on second place and $3000. If the two big stacks were normal players, you would have virtually no hope of reaching second place. If you call, even with AA, there is lower percentage of reaching second than if you fold.
This sort of thing is generally hard to grasp especially when situations aren't as clear cut as the above. But from the moment a tournament starts, every chip you lose has more value than a chip you win. At the beginning this is a very small factor but gets bigger as the tourney goes on and jumps when the bubble approachs and again as players in the money start to get eliminated and the payout structure comes into play.
However, on the other hand, I like the fast heads up games too. A lot more hands are played, obviously, and it is a fast thinking fun time. I always play 1 or 2 heads up games after a tournament. It gives me a lot of confidence with my heads up in tournies.
Either way, thank you for the insight. I can see a huge difference now. I guess I just didn't think too much about it and haven't played in ring games in so long. Maybe I'll give them a shot again when I increase my bankroll to a comfortable spot.
One of the biggest mistakes i see players making is during tournament games...
Player A goes all in pre-flop. Player B and Player C call. The flop doesn't hit Player B at all, yet he proceeds to bluff out Player C with a bet.
...I find people just don't understand that the correct strategy here (for Player B) is to keep Player C in play unless you make a strong hand. By bluffing out Player C, you give Player A a better shot at winning the pot and staying in the tournament. Plus, bluffing should only be used if you have a legitimate chance of winning the pot without going to a showdown; in this case Player A has already committed ALL of their chips into the pot so a showdown is inevitable. In this situation I wouldn't even bet out if I had a good draw.
I hope that makes sense to everyone... I am really bad at explanations.
I'm going to try to find this hand in my hand history, but I had almost the exact thing come up!!
There was a guy who bet all-in pre-flop when there were 4 of us left at a 9 man SnG tournament on stars. He was being a fool with the chat feature, so I figured a lot of people were going to call him. He didn't have all that many chips.
He seemed like a tight player, so I was putting him on a high pair. I was expecting KK, but it ended up being JJ.
The first guy folds and me, with AK I believe, and another guy with two spades both call him. The flop hits with a K. I decided to check all the way to the river with the other guy. After this I knew the guy didn't have K's, and he slow played A's twice in a similar stack situation, so I put him on QQ or JJ. I guess AA was a possibility, but I was holding one of them, so the probability of that was very small.
I was thinking, maybe that guy who called with me is on a club flush draw or a straight draw and the guy hits a jack on the turn or the river. What if the J of clubs comes up, the better had a J, and the other player hit his flush? I would lose, but the other player would be gone.
Either way, I lost to a flush (the Jc didn't hit), but it was a good move to get that guy out of the game IMO.
So yeah, I think of this all the time when people are making all-in bets. Especially when it secures a spot in the money.
The good thing is, the guy who had the flush hit the flush on the turn and didn't raise. I don't know what he was putting the other guy on, but he must have been thinking like me. I ended up third that tournmanet I believe.
So, yeah, there's an example to back your post up. Good call on that one! I see it ALL THE TIME!! It's frustrating sometimes, but I could see happening less when playing at higher stakes.
So, yeah, I need more patience. That has to be the biggest mistake newbies make!
Also, not actually learning how to play poker properly is another one for sure.
I would suggest that in most cases, the chips are more important to you than the player being eliminated. Proving this is more complicated than I wish to attempt in this brief post but I'm certain most experienced tournament players will agree with this.
I'll try to give one example. Say there is a dry side pot with three players one all-in for 3bbs and you and another call. It is a 10.5bb pot. If you have something like 20bbs, this pot is important to you. The flop brings you an A high flush draw. I would certainly bet at this pot in hopes of knocking out something like top pair. And fortunately, most players would figure top pair was no good here given my bet into a dry side pot. My chance to win the pot now would be greatly increased and I might even be ahead of all-in guy with my A high.
Actually, a lot of good tournament players might be better off not agreeing with my opinion and I might just stop saying stuff like this.
I ran into a situation where I had to bet to win both of the pots. I forced the other guy out on the river, but I hit a full house on the flop, so I had to try to extract as many chips as I could.
From my point of view at the moment, there are situations where both can apply.
I was playing the other day and hit a pair on the flop. It wasn't a big pair, but another guy was all in with very few chips. There were 4 of us total, and all of us saw the flop. I was first to act with a pair of 9's or something like that. I had 9-T suited I think, small blind. So, I checked. The guy on the button decides to raise, so the other two of us fold. He was bluffing and the dude that was all in had nothing. He had a good hand with AK, but he didn't hit anything on the flop.
So, in this situation, I believe the best move is to not bluff others off of their hands in order to get the guy out.
Like I said, I can think of good examples of both. I was also playing yesterday and another guy pushed me off of my hand early when I had AQ suited. I hit nothing on the flop, but a T came up. There were 3 of us in this hand. One guy was all in - he bet a bit more than I wanted to call to be all in, but I took the chance to get him out, and I had a lot of chips - and the other guy called him with me. The flop comes out and I'm last to act. The other guy raised almost twice the pot size. I just couldn't call that, so I folded. The turn and river ended up being JK to give me the straight. He had nothing and the all-in guy ended up with a pair of Jacks.
So, yeah, I can see why checking down to the river works sometimes. So, if there is a large chance you are going to win, you should consider pushing the other guy out of the pot, to increase your chances, but if you don't have anything, don't bluff. That's how I see it now. No bluffing when other players are all-in.
EDIT:
On the other hand, if you have nothing and you sense weakness, you might want to push the other guy out of the bot incase it comes down to a 'who has the highest card' type of situation. Or, you might hit your pair on the turn or river to win. Pushing as many people out of the pot as possible will increase your odds. You could look at it that way too.
Wow, it's like he's psychic...
Folding when ahead in cash games is "generally" not a good plan...
There are definitly many times when you feel that you could be ahead that you should fold in cash games. For example against an opponent running a 14/8 with 3.5 postflop aggression in full ring 400NL if you check from the BB in a limped pot with 4 opponents in the hand and the flop is 9sTsJs and you have J2, if you bet and get raised you should very likely fold or it may be better to just check fold. Playing in a spot where you're unsure on a very dangerous board even if you may be slightly ahead doesnt make a lot of sense with a vulnerable hand.
He's definitly excellent and that is why he's the #1 ranked online player right now. Keep an eye out for USCphildo. 9 months ago he was unranked and is now ranked #7. He just had a $62k score and an $83k score in back to back days this week.
The other big mistake is guys not reading the board. Not recognizing that the 2nd pair they hit now put 3 spades on the board and there is a potential flush out there.
Finally the BIGGEST mistake we are all making on the forum is not taking Kristy's word as the GOSPEL. She's right we are wrong we need to get over it
And finally most people play over what their bankroll can handle and end up broke even if they are a decent enough player. Variance is a bitch, get used to it.