Dry side pot conversation again

The Prophet 22The Prophet 22
in MTT Strategy
So I am playing at Dave's tournament in Kitchener yesterday. Roger was to my right and short stacked. I had been eyeing his chips for quite some time. Ther were 2 limpers from guys who had been extremely agressive all day. We had 10 at the final table to start and I think we were down to eight. The top 5 paid so still 3 awyway from the money. Roger pushes on the 2 limpers and I call as do the limpers. With the antes I believe ther is about 15k. Flop comes King high everyone checks. The turn is a Jack checked to me and I go all in. I get scolded by one gentlemen, saying it is a dry side pot and shouldn't not have made that bet.

While I agree I should have made a huge over bet, I tried to explain, I had the best hiand in my mind so I bet it. My goal was to gather chips to compete with Peteski. With the stack he had I need chips to keep him from using his stack as a weapon against me with any to cards. He could not see the logic of betting with the percieved best hand and that the focus should be on taking a player out.

Thoughts?

Comments

  • JohnnieHJohnnieH
    If you think you're ahead, you bet to isolate.

    Bluffing into a dry side pot is a bad move.
  • waltsfriendwaltsfriend
    What were the blind levels at this point? What were the other stack sizes at the table?
  • HobbesHobbes
    JohnnieH wrote: »
    If you think you're ahead, you bet to isolate.

    Bluffing into a dry side pot is a bad move.

    +1 esp into a significant main pot
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9
    The Prophet 22 wrote: »
    I get scolded by one gentlemen, saying it is a dry side pot and shouldn't not have made that bet.
    YOU tell him to **** off. note, it has to be YOU.

    he should not be educating the fishes. just tell him the play speaks for itself and laugh.
  • moosemoose
    hand?
  • The Prophet 22The Prophet 22
    pkrfce9 wrote: »
    YOU tell him to **** off. note, it has to be YOU.

    he should not be educating the fishes. just tell him the play speaks for itself and laugh.

    You had to throw that in my face again. I tell you ONCE about educating the fishes and you give it back. Well I guess I deserve it. LOL

    Your right the hand did speak for itself. I knew I had the best hand and wasn't going to be drawn out on with the Ace. My guess is the player who complained the most probably had an Ace rag and was hoping to hit for his limp. If I had chose to raise him out of the had pre-flop, so that I could isolate and then take my chance would he still have complained? Again chance are yes.

    To answer some of the other questions, I think I was second in chips, but still way behind Peteski. The two other guys in the hand had been hyper aggressive all day and showing big bluffs, turning over 74 off, and 53off, Q2 off, etc after having made a raise of 8x the bb. They hit some are part of these hand, one of the guys made a straight and the other guy bluffed Buzzzardd off his hand . It was my first all-in of the day in a pushing situation, other than calling g2's all-in. I had the other two guys covered. So if I was correct, I wanted them to pay to see the last card and if they were wrong they too would be gone and we be on the bubble.

    I guess my question is and I tried to do a poll but can't figure it out,

    Do you ever think there is an appropriate time to bet into a dry side pot ?

    1)yes
    2)no

    Maybe one of you smarter guys can write it up. Greg is right. I think inexperience and or new players believe it is always right to check it down.
  • westside8westside8
    If you are bluffing, then don't. If you have a hand, bet it to get value from it.
  • KristyKristy
    Yo VIP, let's kick it

    (Edited: because it was a repost, the forum is hella-slow today)
  • KristyKristy
    This thread R travesty.

    a: What exactly did you have
    b: What were the blinds and stack sizes of ALL involved
    c: If you thought you were ahead why are you making "HUGE OVERBETS" instead of something more call-able
    d: Vanilla Ice
    e: I LOVE bluffing dry side pots with this many people, you make a little sucker bet on the flop and steal all the forced calls on the turn; they cannot call you without ridiculously strong hands. So when they fold you are free rolling or profiting with a chance to knock out the short stack for even more. Eff all this nonsense about getting to the money, your job is to abuse shorter stacks and accumulate chips...with second stack you don't give a fuck who finishes 7th.
    f: When in a game always respond to a coach with: "That's the stupidest thing I've EVER heard" and then call the floor over and discuss how you're uncomfortable taking money from the mentally handicapped....(The result is not esp. + but always hillarious)

    Yeah, I'm a bitch...but try not to dwell on the irrelevant in your reposts.
  • KristyKristy
    I'm actually just sitting around waiting for 800Over's repost

    Edit: Dammit, he gave up, his shit is always gold!
  • PantsonfirePantsonfire
    There are a lot of factors when it comes to side pots and tournaments. If we are nowhere near the bubble, I just play normal. If we are near the bubble or on it, I will play whatever suits me the best. If I have a lot of chips and the pot is small, I'll play for shortie to exit. If I need those chips in the pot, I'll push to get them if I have a hand especially one that needs protecting.

    I saw a hand where it was shortie was up against two others. They both checked it down and Otherguy1 bet about half pot on the river. Otherguy2 typed something rude in the chat box and called. Otherguy2 showed top set which he flopped while Otherguy1 showed the runner-runner nut flush.

    Let's hope Otherguy2 and every player like him don't figure out their problem.

    So the correct answer to getting scolded is: "Sorry, I got overexcited there and forgot what I was doing".
  • 800OVER800OVER
    The Prophet 22 wrote: »

    Do you ever think there is an appropriate time to bet into a dry side pot ?

    1)yes
    2)no

    QUOTE]

    YES

    but Sandy's question about the stack sizes is important. I'll use an example*

    BLinds 50-100


    Have AK with 5000 chips....I raise to 300.....1 caller and big blind goes all in/calls short with only 150. I play this hand like he's not even in the hand. I'm playing against the 1 full caller. So if the flop comes low I will probably CB.

    With deep stacks it's not a problem.....just make sure you have some kind of hand. If I'm down to 3 players....i'm not betting anything but a monster.(ie flush draw)

    So yes sometimes it's ok.....but if you're bluffing....then you deserve to have your AA cracked by 72o


    EDIT: I'd bet 2pairs or better all day long....no matter what the stacks/situation.
  • The Prophet 22The Prophet 22
    800OVER wrote: »
    The Prophet 22 wrote: »

    Do you ever think there is an appropriate time to bet into a dry side pot ?

    1)yes
    2)no

    QUOTE]

    YES

    but Sandy's question about the stack sizes is important. I'll use an example*

    BLinds 50-100


    Have AK with 5000 chips....I raise to 300.....1 caller and big blind goes all in/calls short with only 150. I play this hand like he's not even in the hand. I'm playing against the 1 full caller. So if the flop comes low I will probably CB.

    With deep stacks it's not a problem.....just make sure you have some kind of hand. If I'm down to 3 players....i'm not betting anything but a monster.(ie flush draw)

    So yes sometimes it's ok.....but if you're bluffing....then you deserve to have your AA cracked by 72o


    EDIT: I'd bet 2pairs or better all day long....no matter what the stacks/situation.

    I think I had around 120k blinds were 500/1000 8 players left in the tournament top 5 get paid. I was second in chips at the table and had all three guys who were in the hand covered and if I was wrong on the situation, I still would have had 80k left.

    My question is more philosophical than anything.
  • T8urmoneyT8urmoney
    It's always OK to bet into a dry side pot with a made hand. Bluffing into a dry side makes absolutely no sense to me.......but I see it all the time, especially online. I have a simple plan I use.....if I'm short stacked need the pot, I'll go all in on the flop if make a hand, but usually I'd have done that preflop if I had called. If I have a bigstack...I'll check down (even the nuts)....if someone feels the urge to bet....they will get smacked.

    My thinking is a tournament with one less player is more valuable than a small pot that doesn't increase my stack significantly.
  • InsaneGuyInsaneGuy
    I hate those little fuckers in Satellite when we're close to the bubble to bet on the fucking river and lose the pot and triple/quadriple up some guy just cuz they thought they could be heads up... fucking asshole.

    Other than that, if you do have a hand well it's more than ok to bet and win the pot.

    Exemple that happended in a tourney I was playing (live fking donkfest freeroll to bigger freeroll to bigger freeroll to big buy in mtt)

    anyways...

    I'm BB
    2 callers, I have about 15kk stack, sb goes all in for his last 7-8k
    I have JJ

    I call, one other guy also calls.

    Flop is something like 26J rainbow

    I push he folds sb has Arag, I win.

    Table is like "haha nub pushed in a dryside pot) (but in french, and most french quebecers who play poker are fucking retarded no job freeroll seeking faggot).

    Fuck them they don't know shit.


    wow I feel better now that this is out of my system.


    edit: spelling
    edit2: added a line.
  • pkrfce9pkrfce9
    InsaneGuy wrote: »
    most french quebecers who play poker are fucking retarded no job freeroll seeking faggot
    "wow. that's pretty racist. but true."
    - rod
  • InsaneGuyInsaneGuy
    pkrfce9 wrote: »
    "wow. that's pretty racist. but true."
    - rod

    Not sure but I don't think I can be racist of my own race?
    That wouldn't make sense :)
  • herschelwherschelw
    Both bluffing and betting with the best hand into a dry side pot can actually make sense. First let's talk about bluffing into a dry side. let's say there's one player allin and you and another player still both have 10k chips behind roughly. The main pot is 10k chips and you have :ac:kc. The flop is :qd:8s:5h. If you think the other player in the pot(who still has chips) is likely to have a small pair and would likely be willing to fold it or if you think they likely have air it makes sense for you to bet or shove into the dry side. They may fold the best hand and you could very possibly be ahead of the player who's allin. Even if you arent ahead of the player who is allin you'll typically have outs to the best hand and doubling your stack is worth the risk.
    If this is a multitable tournament with a top heavy payout structure you should be focused on winning the tournament and not moving up the payout scale.

    Now if you have a hand like :6s:ah on a :3c:2s:6h flop and your opponent who still has chips behind is likely to have two face cards then this is also a spot where you should be betting into a dry side pot to keep the other player from drawing out on you. If they call then fine they paid bad odds to float you and you can play the turn based on where you ranged them and the card that fell.


    To further explain why this makes sense let's discuss it on a metagame level. Most players(especially live players) think it's horrible to bet into a dry side to bluff so they will fold much much tighter to your bet and this allows you to take them off the best hand at times when you have a hand that is likely to improve often. Busting other players isnt the goal in poker. Getting all the chips is the goal.
  • InsaneGuyInsaneGuy
    Gjust vlgo allin!

    Allin``>jesucms
  • herschelwherschelw
    Here's an example of when I think betting into a dry side pot makes sense.

    PokerStars Game #19263475413: Tournament #98185717, $150+$12 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (600/1200) - 2008/08/01 - 00:22:17 (ET)
    Table '98185717 9' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
    Seat 1: bd3109 (51198 in chips)
    Seat 2: Tall Tells (3695 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
    Seat 3: dbslim (20419 in chips)
    Seat 4: bigromboski (7470 in chips)
    Seat 5: HeadwoundHal (566 in chips)
    Seat 6: herschelw (85402 in chips)
    Seat 8: nicolos (39577 in chips)
    Seat 9: missle9 (6594 in chips) is sitting out
    bd3109: posts the ante 125
    dbslim: posts the ante 125
    bigromboski: posts the ante 125
    HeadwoundHal: posts the ante 125
    herschelw: posts the ante 125
    nicolos: posts the ante 125
    missle9: posts the ante 125
    dbslim: posts small blind 600
    bigromboski: posts big blind 1200
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to herschelw [3s Ks]
    HeadwoundHal: calls 441 and is all-in
    herschelw: calls 1200
    nicolos: folds
    missle9: folds
    missle9 is connected
    bd3109: folds
    dbslim: folds
    bigromboski: checks
    *** FLOP *** [6s 7c 3c]
    bigromboski: checks
    missle9 has returned
    herschelw: bets 6000
    bigromboski: folds
    Uncalled bet (6000) returned to herschelw
    *** TURN *** [6s 7c 3c] [4d]
    *** RIVER *** [6s 7c 3c 4d] [3d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    herschelw: shows [3s Ks] (three of a kind, Threes)
    herschelw collected 1677 from side pot
    HeadwoundHal: shows [5d 9d] (a straight, Three to Seven)
    Papatri is connected
    HeadwoundHal collected 2639 from main pot
    herschelw said, "nh"
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot 4316 Main pot 2639. Side pot 1677. | Rake 0
    Board [6s 7c 3c 4d 3d]
    Seat 1: bd3109 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 3: dbslim (small blind) folded before Flop
    Seat 4: bigromboski (big blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 5: HeadwoundHal showed [5d 9d] and won (2639) with a straight, Three to Seven
    Seat 6: herschelw showed [3s Ks] and won (1677) with three of a kind, Threes
    Seat 8: nicolos folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 9: missle9 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
  • GrahamGraham
    herschelw wrote: »
    Both bluffing and betting with the best hand into a dry side pot can actually make sense. First let's talk about bluffing into a dry side. let's say there's one player allin and you and another player still both have 10k chips behind roughly. The main pot is 10k chips and you have :ac:kc. The flop is :qd:8s:5h. If you think the other player in the pot(who still has chips) is likely to have a small pair and would likely be willing to fold it or if you think they likely have air it makes sense for you to bet or shove into the dry side. They may fold the best hand and you could very possibly be ahead of the player who's allin. Even if you arent ahead of the player who is allin you'll typically have outs to the best hand and doubling your stack is worth the risk.
    If this is a multitable tournament with a top heavy payout structure you should be focused on winning the tournament and not moving up the payout scale.

    Now if you have a hand like :6s:ah on a :3c:2s:6h flop and your opponent who still has chips behind is likely to have two face cards then this is also a spot where you should be betting into a dry side pot to keep the other player from drawing out on you. If they call then fine they paid bad odds to float you and you can play the turn based on where you ranged them and the card that fell.


    To further explain why this makes sense let's discuss it on a metagame level. Most players(especially live players) think it's horrible to bet into a dry side to bluff so they will fold much much tighter to your bet and this allows you to take them off the best hand at times when you have a hand that is likely to improve often. Busting other players isnt the goal in poker. Getting all the chips is the goal.

    Hey Jerry,

    Thanks for joining! I gave you a custom user title. For those that don't know, herschelw is another succesful online player and one of the coaches from PokerPwnage.com.

    Thanks for the insight!
  • PantsonfirePantsonfire
    Here is an easy test when deciding what to do. Ask yourself what is more important to you, getting the chips in the pot or eliminating the short stack. In my exerience, it is usually winning those chips that is more important.

    So what about bluffing into a dry side pot? Well, lets look at an example. Shortie is all-in with KQ, I call with A8 and there is another caller with 99. My stack is 30bbs and there is now 10bbs in the pot. The flop comes J72 rainbow. What are my chances of winning this pot? I basically have three outs to beat 99. Wait a second, what if I make a 3/4 pot bet on this flop? 99 would be certain that I had a J or trips and would fold. Now all of a sudden I am a favourite to win this pot.

    Bluff at a dry side pot? Damn right.
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