A Situation that Baffled Me

MonteroyMonteroy
in MTT Strategy
I was not sure what to do at the time, still not sure. This was shortly after the rebuy period.

The utgs min raise does not mean too much as he had been playing limit poker all night in this NL rebuy, and the stacks of the people involved are what made my decision kind of ugly


PokerStars Game #18729840116: Tournament #94712638, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2008/07/10 - 21:27:09 (ET)
Table '94712638 223' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: DoyleeAdept (11765 in chips)
Seat 2: ccckb69 (1340 in chips)
Seat 3: Monteroy (15460 in chips)
Seat 4: PokerProFL (2925 in chips)
Seat 5: dblerc (15845 in chips)
Seat 6: MoeDobbs (13750 in chips)
Seat 7: Mesq_Lady2 (7800 in chips)
Seat 8: jlleach1 (10000 in chips)
Seat 9: tupacmn (5745 in chips)
ccckb69: posts small blind 100
Monteroy: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [9h 9d]
PokerProFL: raises 200 to 400
dblerc: calls 400
MoeDobbs: folds
Mesq_Lady2: folds
jlleach1: folds
tupacmn: folds
DoyleeAdept: calls 400
ccckb69: raises 940 to 1340 and is all-in
Monteroy: calls 1140
PokerProFL: calls 940
dblerc: calls 940
DoyleeAdept: calls 940
*** FLOP *** [7c 8h Ah]
Monteroy: checks
PokerProFL: bets 200
dblerc: calls 200
DoyleeAdept: raises 1200 to 1400
Monteroy: folds
PokerProFL: raises 185 to 1585 and is all-in
dblerc: folds
DoyleeAdept: calls 185
*** TURN *** [7c 8h Ah] [6c]
*** RIVER *** [7c 8h Ah 6c] [Qd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PokerProFL: shows [Ad Jd] (a pair of Aces)
DoyleeAdept: shows [6h 7h] (two pair, Sevens and Sixes)
DoyleeAdept collected 3370 from side pot
ccckb69: shows [Kc Kh] (a pair of Kings)
DoyleeAdept collected 6700 from main pot
mr.fixAA is connected


Guy with KK was whining that the 67 hand player was a donk but obviously he played it fine given the strange way the hand progressed.

I guess I was just calling hoping for a set and also hoping none of the fellow big stacks pushed after. It seemed too risky to shove and try to isolate with 99 when it could easily be behind or a coin flip anyways and a fellow big stack will only commit after if they have it beat.

Calling seemed awkward, but I cannot think of a better option in hindsight that really makes me happy. Raising had way too much downside with minimal upside, and folding while sort of an option seemed to be giving up a lot of potential as well. The stack sizes/positions of the players made it a strange hand.

I did admire that the utg player still stuck to his limit roots by min betting a 2% pot bet after the flop.

Any thoughts?

Comments

  • PantsonfirePantsonfire
    I'm not a big fan of your call. It might appear that ccckb69 has a wide range but he is putting in all his chips knowing he will get called and probably in more than one spot so without knowing him, his range could be fairly narrow. And if there is a re-raise somewhere (and there are three active players left after your call), you will have to release and donate 1/15 of your stack.

    Other than that, I don't see any baffling play in this hand other than perhaps the weak ass betting of limit boy.
  • MonteroyMonteroy
    Actually, the call was more based on the odds I would have vs 4-5 opponents then how I thought I felt vs the small stack who shoved (this was the "baffling" part - ie the all in made me focus more on the other players then the actual all in guy). Against the shortie who pushed I assumed I was a likely a coin flip at best (though him having 77/88 hand seemed possible).

    I am not quite sure what you are suggesting the proper course of action should have been here. Folding?
  • CanadaDaveCanadaDave
    Monteroy wrote: »
    Actually, the call was more based on the odds I would have vs 4-5 opponents then how I thought I felt vs the small stack who shoved (this was the "baffling" part - ie the all in made me focus more on the other players then the actual all in guy). Against the shortie who pushed I assumed I was a likely a coin flip at best (though him having 77/88 hand seemed possible).

    I am not quite sure what you are suggesting the proper course of action should have been here. Folding?

    I think he was saying, with 3 players behind you left to act, after your preflop call, you are lucky that no-one else raised it up.
    Monteroy wrote: »
    Monteroy: calls 1140
    PokerProFL: calls 940
    dblerc: calls 940
    DoyleeAdept: calls 940

    Especially with dblerc and DoyleeAdept potentially reraising all-in, which I think is a call you can't make with those 9s.

    So In that spot I would probably have folded the 9s, unless I was sure of a couple of things:

    1. That the people left to act are likely only to call, and not re-pop it.
    2. That the people left to act would have raised already if they had premium hands, so I'm likely racing or better against most of them(ie. they have over cards, or an underpair).

    If I thought there was a chance 1 or 2 of those people could go all in after I make that call, I'd save the money and just fold the 9s.

    But like I said, it depends on your reads, if those players are calling stations, than go ahead and hope to flop a set.
  • MonteroyMonteroy
    CanadaDave wrote: »
    I think he was saying, with 3 players behind you left to act, after your preflop call, you are lucky that no-one else raised it up.

    Especially with dblerc and DoyleeAdept potentially reraising all-in, which I think is a call you can't make with those 9s.

    So In that spot I would probably have folded the 9s, unless I was sure of a couple of things:

    1. That the people left to act are likely only to call, and not re-pop it.
    2. That the people left to act would have raised already if they had premium hands, so I'm likely racing or better against most of them(ie. they have over cards, or an underpair).

    If I thought there was a chance 1 or 2 of those people could go all in after I make that call, I'd save the money and just fold the 9s.

    But like I said, it depends on your reads, if those players are calling stations, than go ahead and hope to flop a set.


    Well, I was not that worried if the limit player pushed for his 2800 or so (though it would have been awkward if the other 2 then called), but what balanced my concern about the other 2 big stacks shoving was that they were in the same tricky situation as I was and really if they did shove I would feel very comfortable that I was dominated by one of the stacks that mattered.

    I certainly was worried about the call/face a shove scenario, but I felt fairly confident that I would see a bunch of calls and given that, and the very flat payout structure of the tournament, it seemed a worthwhile risk for the potential payout if I flopped a set vs top pair or an overpair.
  • PantsonfirePantsonfire
    Monteroy wrote: »
    Actually, the call was more based on the odds I would have vs 4-5 opponents then how I thought I felt vs the small stack who shoved (this was the "baffling" part - ie the all in made me focus more on the other players then the actual all in guy). Against the shortie who pushed I assumed I was a likely a coin flip at best (though him having 77/88 hand seemed possible).

    I am not quite sure what you are suggesting the proper course of action should have been here. Folding?
    In spots like this with a hand like 99, I would prefer to isolate. You are right that a coin flip is a good likelyhood and a 88 or less hand is ideal. But you have too many active players behind you. I would isolate here with a reraise if I had AA or KK not 99. I just see a call here as an invitation to either get reraised out of the pot or face a flop against multiple opponents where it is highly likely that there will be a card higher than a 9 on the flop and you will be faced with guessing what to do facing a fairly large pot.

    In spots like this one of the first things I do is I ask myself what can I do now to make my next decision easy. Calling is not the answer to that question. It's just my point of view. If you have dead reads of all these players then see a flop and make a brilliant laydown or all-in. If not, then just fold and wait for an opportunity where you are not facing so many opponents and thus a potentially difficult and tournament ending decision.
  • MonteroyMonteroy
    Pantsonfire wrote: »
    In spots like this with a hand like 99, I would prefer to isolate. You are right that a coin flip is a good likelyhood and a 88 or less hand is ideal. But you have too many active players behind you. I would isolate here with a reraise if I had AA or KK not 99. I just see a call here as an invitation to either get reraised out of the pot or face a flop against multiple opponents where it is highly likely that there will be a card higher than a 9 on the flop and you will be faced with guessing what to do facing a fairly large pot.

    In spots like this one of the first things I do is I ask myself what can I do now to make my next decision easy. Calling is not the answer to that question. It's just my point of view. If you have dead reads of all these players then see a flop and make a brilliant laydown or all-in. If not, then just fold and wait for an opportunity where you are not facing so many opponents and thus a potentially difficult and tournament ending decision.

    It is interesting as we are pretty much viewing this hand very differently.

    The table was fairly passive so while someone else shoving was a concern I thought it was fairly unlikely. If I had KK or AA or maybe even QQ I absolutely push and isolate and if the limit player tags along with his 3,000 stack that is fine as well. We agree that is a pointless play with 99.

    99 I looked at as basically 22 in this situation, it was either flop a set or the hand was basically done for me (strange stuff like 678 rainbow flops and min bets to call aside).

    The other factor as well was the payout structure of this tournament. It is beyond flat. 801st is $18 while 19th is $102 while top table is $650-9000, so taking some risks in this way at this point in the tournament has some value as well as going very deep in the tournament is important, so that may even make a minor point for potentially shoving even with 99 in that spot.
  • BBC ZBBC Z
    What about re-raising to 4000 preflop? If either of the comparable stacks plays with you, then you can assume you are beat (or they suck).

    Doyle only has 3k behind, so you'll take away his ability to re-open betting for his all-in should he choose.
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