Do you trust sites known to steal?
Does anyone still have cash in cheating sites like Absolute or Ultimate bet?
If so... Why?
My strong suggestion is to take all money off these sites before the run starts.
If so... Why?
My strong suggestion is to take all money off these sites before the run starts.
Comments
Now, would I rush to make a deposit on these sites if I could play somewhere else? HELL NO! The fact that they let these incidents go on for so long, took from March to discover that there was an actual problem (after initially denying it), and haven't announced plans to take legal action against the individuals involved is enough reason for me to avoid them like the plague
AP bribed me to come back and play on their site, so I did.
UB hired Annie Duke to help out with their tourney scheduling and structures and she did, so I started playing some there.
AP/UB is still the shadiest sites of all, starting from the top.
I think what happened was serious, but realistically it will never impact 99.999% of the players, nor will it likely happen again (and even if it does it will not impact the low level players).
This does not mean that regular players should think there is nothing ever wrong, but if it happens it will more likely be collusion or bots rather then super user accounts grabbing that 5 buck pot.
Canadians certainly have better options, but if some Americans find the games there to be the best for their income, I think they should keep playing there, and ignore the moral high ground people.
FWIW, Rizen and Bax recently both signed on to UB as part of their "Stars Players" (or whatever they call it).
I wrote an article about that on one of my sites yesterday:
Rizen and JohnnyBax Sign Over Their Souls
Though the number affected was small, that does not take away from the seriousness of the issue. If the people doing this were smart, they WOULD have gotten away with it. By smart, I mean maybe lose a few hands, but greed can be a powerful thing.
Could it happen at low stakes? Why not? $5 pots add up over time, there is much less chance that it would get noticed, and the players aren't as smart as those playing the high stakes games.
Could it happen at play money tables? Sure, why not. Could aliens attack the earth tomorrow? Sure, why not.
I am not dismissing what happened as trivial, it was quite the opposite as a lot of money was involved. However, that does not mean that this type of crime is likely to happen at the smaller stakes, since it just does not make as much sense in terms of time/risk/return.
Yes, the people who cheat and are caught tend to be the dumb obvious ones, like what we saw here and when Raymers account got hacked and started dumping money at the 5k HU sit and gos, and no doubt there is collusion and botting that takes place in a less greedy manner that gets away with it at times.
Still, to go with the premise of believing the unlikely happens because technically it could happen is a bit flawed, and is generally the weakness behind most rigged theories (ie: the belief that the site is rigged since it could happen).
I am not implying you are going with the "OMG its RIGGEDZORS" belief, but the fear based "it could happen" needs to be balanced with the is it worthwhile or likely to happen, which for most low/mid stakes strikes me as unlikely.
The flip side to this is I think very high stakes players should always be concerned and take measures to ensure the game they are playing is fair, since the risk of bad things happening to them is real and has been shown to happen.
This is a terrible attitude... by playing at UB you are supporting cheaters. The old argument that sites won't cheat you was that there was too much risk because they can make so much money being fair and risking that by cheating would be dumb. Well 2 sites owned by the same people have cheated players and people are still playing there so to me that argument doesnt work anymore. So if im pokerstars and see this what is stopping me from going and cheating (and actually being smart about it).
If i was a low stakes player would i be worried about getting cheated on UB? No. But why would i support cheaters when there are a dozen sites our there with good reputations.
Though it does not matter, I do not actually play at UB or Absolute, but I do not agree with this simplistic analysis. First of all, I doubt all of us have lived a pristine life avoiding all things "dirty." Do you know how all of the clothes you own were made? Have you ever ordered pizza from Pizza Pizza after the way they defrauded many of their franchisees?
I suspect many of us would have to give up a very long list of products we enjoy if our lives were put through the evil analyzer.
The moral high ground approach is simplistic and in fact online gaming in general suffers from it in the US. Remember, many there believe all forms of online gaming is evil and a sin that should be punished, and in their eyes a person who merely plays poker online supports greater evil then "cheaters"
Are they right? They certainly believe so and they would call anyone who disagrees with them an idiot.
Personally, I think it is fine if a person chooses not to play at those sites for moral reasons or for any reason. I did not play at Absolute for years for financial ones - ie: no rakeback, but I still play in the PSO freerolls when they happen and won $100 last one with no guilt :P
I also have no problems if a player chooses to continue playing there if they make a good return. That is the reason for playing online poker.
Actually, the old argument is that the sites do not have anything to gain by cheating/rigging, and that is still a valid point. This was not Absolute and UB stealing to increase their profits, it was corrupt people inside stealing for personal gain. There was no upside for the sites here.
How UB and Absolute handled it was not ideal, but if anything this proves further why the sites themselves would not cheat the players, and it definitely shows that more stringent measures need to be in place to catch and punish employees that use the system to cheat.
You are free to choose to play where you want for the reasons you want. Again, realize that simply playing online poker is considered wrong by others, so I generally use financial reasons for where/how I chose to play online pokwer then moral ones.
These "corrupt people inside" just so happened to be the owners of the site and they still are the owners of the site. You seem to have fallen for what was written in the press release which if you read all the information out there on UB/AP you would realize is just a bunch of lies and half truths.
With all due respect, I had to put up with a guy when playing once who went on and on about the "9/11 conspiracy," and those of us who did not see the "real truth" were pawns that only believed what was written by the news media.
The facts are that noone here knows the entire story yet, and we may never know the whole story. I am not dismissing what happened, but people are corrupt and stuff like this happens in all types of companies.
AM I buying your version of "the truth?" Nah, but I know you believe in it which is your right. As with the 9/11 guy I think emotion is more at play then logic, but that is part of the human condition as well.
Do I think that the old owners are secretly the new owners and no one will ever discover the secret evilness of their huge plots they made while cackling and moving their fingers in an evil Mr Burns like manner?
Nah, I suspect a couple bad people did bad things, which in the end is not good for the site as a business (correctly so), and I think if changes are not made to prevent it in future they will suffer more.
I also think if a player makes money there playing legitimately, they are free to continue to do so, and they can weigh the moral issues as part of the whole equation in that choice.
Just as all of us do whenever we play online poker which is not entirely legal to begin with
Nat Arem went down to Costa Rica and investigated the AP situation... AP paid him to go down and help out and after the investigation he said that he believes Scott Tom is still involved with the ownership of AP/UB. He probably knows more about the whole situation than anyone so if he says something I would think it is fairly likely it is right.
There are many many issues with UBs story but to me the most suspicious is that the people doing the cheating were able to cash out millions of dollars without a problem when there have been many cases where people who have done nothing wrong get their accounts frozen and investigated just simply because they are cashing out a large amount of money. Also if this was all done under old management and the new management is paying everyone back why aren't they seeking legal action against the old people in charge. If you are looking for actual facts and documents on why UB is lying check out the thread on 2+2 because it is all there.
Also the "old" UB management has frozen accounts of players who were running hot at blackjack on the site. "New" management just did the same thing the other day. Seems to me UB is still as incompetent as they have always been.
Also, online poker is 100% legal (here in Canada at least) and anyone that says it is morally wrong is an idiot.
Actually, you kind of are one. You are doing what all conspiracy buffs do, you take a variety of "facts" (often without full context or information) and mold them to fit your theory of how and why something took place.
Your blackjack example for instance. What does that prove? According to you it implies that UB freezes temporarily accounts of people who run hot in BJ as some piece of a sinister plot.
Maybe it is automated process when an account gains a lot of money in a very, very short time. You know, like what would happen if it was on the receiving end of a chip dumping scheme.
The latter would be a reasonable, though at times inconvenient, security measure, but that would not fit into the whole UB is cheating players belief structure as well, so instead it is better to imply they stop their players from continuing to play a -EV game for more malicious reasons.
Your other facts are pieced together second/third/fourth hand information from other message boards all to fit the UB/Absolute are sinister cheater beliefs.
In the end you are fully entitled to believe whatever you wish to believe, and if you want to believe that UB and Absolute's mission statement is to cheat their players - then go for it. Many players will likely not place a lot of value on your "facts" because as I already mentioned they are rehashes of a lot of angry posts merged together to fit a theory you have about what happened, and in the end it will not really impact nearly all of the players anyways.
You may think it is morally wrong for a person to play at UB/Absolute, and again that is your right, however we are talking about online gambling, which falls a bit short in terms of overall morality compared to lead paint in kids toys for instance, so do not be surprised if your appeal to others morality falls short when it comes to online gambling.
Oh, one other thing about conspiracy people. They are quick to declare those that do not believe them as an idiot in some manner
All the best.
Go check out the 2+2 pokercast where they interview some guy from UB... it is actually pretty comical how bad he comes off in the interview
Two Plus Two Pokercast presented by PokerStars VIP Club
Absolute Poker takes all allegations of player fraud and collusion extremely seriously. Fair play and security are of paramount importance to us. Our Security and Fraud Department is dedicated to ensuring that everyone on the site has a fair opportunity to win, and that no improper methods, devices, programs and/or other unfair advantages are ever utilized in our games.
We were greatly concerned by a recent thread on the 2+2 forums along with emails and other communications we received, regarding alleged player fraud. We thank the vigilant players who reported this matter to us, giving us an opportunity to investigate these serious allegations. We spent extensive resources thoroughly investigating and analyzing our players’ claims. While our investigation is ongoing, we feel that we have enough information at this point to share with you some of our findings.
Please be advised, that we will continue to investigate each and every claim of wrong-doing on an individual basis and we will report any further significant findings that are appropriate for public review. Also, please keep in mind, while we endeavor to provide as much information as possible on a public level, we take our players’ privacy issues very seriously, and will never compromise this. As a matter of Company policy, Absolute Poker never divulges personal information about our players nor do we make public any hand information that did not go to a showdown, ever. As a result, we are limited in terms of the level of information that we can provide for public review.
In response to the allegations, we froze the accounts of the players in question while we performed an extensive investigation. The result of our investigation is that we found no evidence that any of Absolute Poker’s redundant and varying levels of game client security were compromised. In other words, we have determined with reasonable certainty that it is impossible for any player or employee to see hole cards as was alleged. There is no part of the technology that allows for a “superuser” account, and there is no way for any person to influence the game software to their advantage. We base this finding on a thorough security check on a technological level, coupled with a thorough investigation of hand histories including those that did not go to a showdown. As a part of our investigation, we also tested the integrity of our certified random number generator (“RNG”.) We determined that our RNG was not compromised either.
Details of the investigation
We combed through all hands involving the accounts that were mentioned in the online forums. Please note that only a select number of hands were featured in the threads. Our ongoing investigation continues to show that there were countless instances where a somewhat unorthodox poker strategy resulted in a loss. Allegations that the player accounts at issue “always guessed right” are unfounded.
We examined screen shots from Poker Tracker Software that displayed an “infinite” river aggression factor for one of the player accounts at issue. We examined similar screen shots which showed a lower but still relatively high river aggression factor. We were very concerned by this anomaly. Accordingly, we reviewed each and every hand that this player played during the relevant time period and determined that while the play was extremely aggressive, particularly on the river, there were several instances where the player merely called on the river. Thus, the allegation that the player accounts at issue “never called on the river, they either raised or folded” are also without merit. With respect to the allegation of chip dumping, we have determined that chip dumping by at least one of the accounts at issue, did in fact, take place. We have determined that the chip dumping was made to several seemingly unrelated accounts. We are continuing to investigate this issue.
Conclusion
A ‘super-user’ account does not exist in our software. Absolute Poker was created by poker players who value security and fair play. The back-end of the Absolute Poker software prevents the possibility of any such feature. Our game client only receives data regarding an individual’s hand and no other player hole cards are ever visible – by anyone – except in the event of a showdown. Having said that, we will continue this investigation as well as look into any other allegations of wrong-doing. If appropriate, we will freeze funds and reimburse effected players.
Absolute Poker remains a 100% secure place to play. We value all of our players and we will continue to provide our community with a safe, secure and exciting online poker experience.
The Absolute Poker Management
And welcome to a near word for word anger based statement every conspiracy nut uses
After all, if you don't believe the government was involved with 9/11 then you are either "dumb or ignorant."
I have already listened to it, what I heard was a guy who knows that he is in the middle of a mess that was caused by a couple of bad people doing bad things and he realizes that it will take a lot of time, effort and money to help make up for their deeds, and that many will never forgive them.
I am not advocating people play at UB, but I do not care if they do if that is what they want. This scandal certainly should be considered when playing there, but to me online poker is about making money.
Again, you are fully entitled to your beliefs, but how you have expressed them so far is pretty much a textbook example of conspiracy belief thinking. so realistically no matter what the UB guy said you would look at it as proof of your beliefs (like how you used the blackjack stuff to that end).
Again, like the 9/11 guys believe - if the government denies it that only proves they are in on it.
"FYI, The whole truth is actually far worse than what has been released."
Heh, maybe or maybe not. Belief that this is fact does not make it fact, just makes it a bit paranoid, that's all.
An amusing take on conspiracy theories in 3 parts by Penn and Teller. Enjoy!
YouTube - Penn & Teller: Bullshit! - 303 - Conspiracy Theories 1/3
YouTube - Penn & Teller: Bullshit! - 303 - Conspiracy Theories 2/3
YouTube - Penn & Teller: Bullshit! - 303 - Conspiracy Theories 3/3
I no longer recommend them.
I used to recommend Absolute for the bonuses.
I no longer recommend them.
If there isn't a run on these sites ... there should be.
Source please... because I'm quite sure that this is not the case!!
Might I suggest you update your review of Absolute???
Absolutely! I updated my review of UB here:
Ultimate Bet Bonus Code, Ultimate Bet Review
But I will definitely get on that AP review in the next few days. Thanks for the heads up!!!!
Maybe it is just a giant coincidence and the ownership group cheated at AP and not at UB but to me if there is any doubt that this is not the case(and you cant argue that there are no flaws in UBs story) you should play on sites that do in fact have a good reputation... there are plenty of sites with a clean record out there.
Not only do these situations make the sites involved look bad, they make "online poker" as a whole look bad. Why should we let a few bad apples ruin it for the rest?
Certainly a site's reputation matters, but realistically a small stakes player's money at UB or Absolute is not in any real danger of being cheated, and to imply otherwise is really a stretch.
It is completely reasonable to point to the problems of these sites and let others place their own value on their importance.
Where it starts getting a bit messy is when the conspiracy method of thinking starts getting used, as was done here for instance with the temp freezing of accounts that run hot in blackjack.
It's "points/facts" like these that put a taint on any real facts that actually matter, because it gives the person who uses these "facts" the image of basically a zealot who will use any information to fit their UB/Absolute is evil belief structure. Same thing when a bunch of 3rd hand info from message boards gets re-interpreted. This makes the message's intent less potent ironically.
"I can understand how someone might think of the anti-UB people as consiracy theorists if there was just the UB case."
Actually all I have said so far is that you are using much of the thinking process/methodology of a conspiracy theory believer (ie: mixing random facts together/applying meaning to unrelated facts etc) and this makes your message less effective. It's more of a picket line/slogan yelling way to make a point, but that generally makes noise and not much else.