How do you play the High Open ender?(with 2 overs)

I was playing a Multi Table SNG, and about half the players were out at the time of this hand.
Blinds 75-150, Average 2500. Opponent has just over 2k, Ive got 5.5k

Folds to Button, who raises to 450. SB folds, I call with KdQd.

Flop comes J 10 3 Rainbow, 1 diamond.
I check, he bets out 600, with a little over 1200 back. I push and he calls.

He flips up QJ, I dont hit my outs.

I was just looking for a bit of analysis. I decided to check in hopes of hitting one of my outs, or check raise to either get him off the pot, or race to the river(hoping he doesnt hit a set or have 3 of my outs)
What do you think of the flat call, the check raise. How would you play the hand? (I have no read on this guy, been 3 hands at the new table)

Comments

  • Here's a second hand that just happened at a Cash table. Would like some input as well. Is that an ok move raising/calling the push? I figured I had so many outs I didnt want to see a blank on the turn since I felt I was ahead on the flop or at least only a slight underdog.

    EDIT: The UTG limp is weak I know, I had just been dealt a medium pair an KJsuited, and felt like limping :S

    PokerStars Game #17643993961: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/05/23 - 20:34:17 (ET)
    Table 'California IV' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
    Seat 1: chriswinsor ($345 in chips)
    Seat 2: StrongBad101 ($124.60 in chips)
    Seat 3: fixedset ($201.05 in chips)
    Seat 5: PimpMySpeed ($40 in chips)
    Seat 6: HuanHuan ($208.65 in chips)
    Seat 7: wildogg2k5 ($203.75 in chips)
    Seat 8: survival ($262.35 in chips)
    Seat 9: Zween78 ($40 in chips)
    survival: posts small blind $1
    Zween78: posts big blind $2
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to chriswinsor [Ah 7h]
    chriswinsor: calls $2
    StrongBad101: calls $2
    fixedset: folds
    PimpMySpeed: folds
    HuanHuan: folds
    wildogg2k5: folds
    survival: calls $1
    Zween78: checks
    *** FLOP *** [4h 3h 6s]
    survival: checks
    Zween78: bets $5
    chriswinsor: raises $11 to $16
    StrongBad101: folds
    survival: folds
    Zween78: raises $22 to $38 and is all-in
    chriswinsor: calls $22
    *** TURN *** [4h 3h 6s] [2s]
    *** RIVER *** [4h 3h 6s 2s] [7d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    Zween78: shows [7s 5d] (a straight, Three to Seven)
    chriswinsor: mucks hand
    Zween78 collected $81 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $84 | Rake $3
    Board [4h 3h 6s 2s 7d]
    Seat 1: chriswinsor mucked [Ah 7h]
    Seat 2: StrongBad101 folded on the Flop
    Seat 3: fixedset folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: PimpMySpeed folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: HuanHuan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: wildogg2k5 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: survival (small blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 9: Zween78 (big blind) showed [7s 5d] and won ($81) with a straight, Three to Seven
  • I was playing a Multi Table SNG, and about half the players were out at the time of this hand.
    Blinds 150-300, Average 2500. Opponent has just over 2k, Ive got 5.5k

    Folds to Button, who raises to 450. SB folds, I call with KdQd.

    Flop comes J 10 3 Rainbow, 1 diamond.
    I check, he bets out 600, with a little over 1200 back. I push and he calls.

    He flips up QJ, I dont hit my outs.

    I was just looking for a bit of analysis. I decided to check in hopes of hitting one of my outs, or check raise to either get him off the pot, or race to the river(hoping he doesnt hit a set or have 3 of my outs)
    What do you think of the flat call, the check raise. How would you play the hand? (I have no read on this guy, been 3 hands at the new table)

    Blinds 150/300? Don't see how he raised to 450 preflop.

    Pushing players with no fold equity left, on a draw, is a BAAAD idea. He has fold equity preflop (I think - not sure what he really raised to). Preflop I push or fold, probably push. If I am flat calling OOP then I must check/fold if I miss because as I said he has no fold equity left.
  • Think about it. It he has a pp, you are behind. If he has A high you are behind. If he hit the board you are behind. There is no flush draw for him to be semi-bluffing with. He could even be betting the same draw as you for at best a chop. There is no realistic hand he could have at this point that does not leave you behind. Best you could hope for is he is betting a Q9s or 98s draw but not likely.

    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
    328,680 games 0.047 secs 6,993,191 games/sec
    Board: Jd Tc 3s
    Dead:
    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 48.235% 46.71% 01.52% 153531 5007.00 { KdQd }
    Hand 1: 51.765% 50.24% 01.52% 165135 5007.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, A2o+, KTo+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o } - any pp, any broadway, any A + some of the straight draws and connected Js and 10s.

    You are putting 1800 into a 1200ish? pot when you trail in pot equity.
  • Not a fan of preflop in either hand but post flop is standard in both
  • I shove my KQ. Usually ahead of his range there. But like obv says, std in both hands post.
  • actyper wrote: »
    I shove my KQ. Usually ahead of his range there. But like obv says, std in both hands post.

    Ah. Fans of the SWOT strategy are we?
  • I was playing a Multi Table SNG, and about half the players were out at the time of this hand.
    Blinds 75-150, Average 2500. Opponent has just over 2k, Ive got 5.5k

    Folds to Button, who raises to 450. SB folds, I call with KdQd.

    Flop comes J 10 3 Rainbow, 1 diamond.
    I check, he bets out 600, with a little over 1200 back. I push and he calls.

    He flips up QJ, I dont hit my outs.

    I was just looking for a bit of analysis. I decided to check in hopes of hitting one of my outs, or check raise to either get him off the pot, or race to the river(hoping he doesnt hit a set or have 3 of my outs)
    What do you think of the flat call, the check raise. How would you play the hand? (I have no read on this guy, been 3 hands at the new table)

    I hate the flat call.
    700 in the pot and he's got 1550 back???
    Calling creates a pot of 1000 with him having 1550 back..

    Fold or push.

    I'd push preflop unless I felt he was trapping.
  • Here's a second hand that just happened at a Cash table. Would like some input as well. Is that an ok move raising/calling the push? I figured I had so many outs I didnt want to see a blank on the turn since I felt I was ahead on the flop or at least only a slight underdog.

    EDIT: The UTG limp is weak I know, I had just been dealt a medium pair an KJsuited, and felt like limping :S

    PokerStars Game #17643993961: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/05/23 - 20:34:17 (ET)
    Table 'California IV' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
    Seat 1: chriswinsor ($345 in chips)
    Seat 2: StrongBad101 ($124.60 in chips)
    Seat 3: fixedset ($201.05 in chips)
    Seat 5: PimpMySpeed ($40 in chips)
    Seat 6: HuanHuan ($208.65 in chips)
    Seat 7: wildogg2k5 ($203.75 in chips)
    Seat 8: survival ($262.35 in chips)
    Seat 9: Zween78 ($40 in chips)
    survival: posts small blind $1
    Zween78: posts big blind $2
    *** HOLE CARDS ***
    Dealt to chriswinsor [Ah 7h]
    chriswinsor: calls $2
    StrongBad101: calls $2
    fixedset: folds
    PimpMySpeed: folds
    HuanHuan: folds
    wildogg2k5: folds
    survival: calls $1
    Zween78: checks
    *** FLOP *** [4h 3h 6s]
    survival: checks
    Zween78: bets $5
    chriswinsor: raises $11 to $16
    StrongBad101: folds
    survival: folds
    Zween78: raises $22 to $38 and is all-in
    chriswinsor: calls $22
    *** TURN *** [4h 3h 6s] [2s]
    *** RIVER *** [4h 3h 6s 2s] [7d]
    *** SHOW DOWN ***
    Zween78: shows [7s 5d] (a straight, Three to Seven)
    chriswinsor: mucks hand
    Zween78 collected $81 from pot
    *** SUMMARY ***
    Total pot $84 | Rake $3
    Board [4h 3h 6s 2s 7d]
    Seat 1: chriswinsor mucked [Ah 7h]
    Seat 2: StrongBad101 folded on the Flop
    Seat 3: fixedset folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 5: PimpMySpeed folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 6: HuanHuan folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 7: wildogg2k5 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
    Seat 8: survival (small blind) folded on the Flop
    Seat 9: Zween78 (big blind) showed [7s 5d] and won ($81) with a straight, Three to Seven

    Lets see, he raises $5 into a $8 pot.
    Why semi-bluff into so many people? Especially a utg raiser.
    Raising also screws up your implied odds, the villain only has < $35 ... You want a small pot at this point.

    Call to preserve your draw, You want overcalls to your call right? That helps to get you the odds you need ...
  • moose wrote: »
    Ah. Fans of the SWOT strategy are we?

    SWOT? Definately not SWAT, but not sure what the O is.
  • _obv_ wrote: »
    Not a fan of preflop in either hand but post flop is standard in both
    Still shaking my head trying to figure out how you call either of these standard.
    actyper wrote: »
    I shove my KQ. Usually ahead of his range there. But like obv says, std in both hands post.
    Your King high is ahead of his range? Could you please explain his range here? Oh wait, moose already did and you're behind everything. gg moose
    actyper wrote: »
    SWOT? Definately not SWAT, but not sure what the O is.
    SWOT analysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Hand #1 - See moose's post

    Hand #2 - See Reef's post

    Try to forget everything else you may have read in this post.

    /g2
  • Umm, I think Moose agrees that pushing pf is the correct move. His analysis was on post flop where pushing on a draw without FE is incorrect.

    2nd are you arguing a pf shove there? I don't think you mentioned how you would play that hand preflop.

    The cash game hand, perhaps it wasn't standard, I don't mind the call there either. Just my style of play to play combo draws big right off the top.
  • The title of the OP is "How do you play the High Open ender?(with 2 overs)"

    So I felt no need to comment on the pre-flop action.

    /g2
  • Agree
  • with obv
  • g2 wrote: »
    Still shaking my head trying to figure out how you call either of these standard.

    hand 1 is standard because:

    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

    149,490 games 0.015 secs 9,966,000 games/sec

    Board: Jc Td 3h
    Dead:

    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 45.805% 42.50% 03.30% 63535 4938.50 { KdQd }
    Hand 1: 54.195% 50.89% 03.30% 76078 4938.50 { TT+, 33, ATs+, KTs+, Q9s+, JTs, 98s, ATo+, KTo+, Q9o+, JTo, 98o }


    Also saying you have no fold equity isn't true... you have very little fold equity because your opponent will fold a small percentage of the time based on the simple fact that lots of people suck at poker.


    Hand 2 is standard because the hero has crushed the flop... the short stack in the big blind could be leading out with a ton of hands and Ah7h has very good equity against his range (definitely a favourite against his range)... even if you know you are up against the flopped nuts you almost have enough equity to get it in on this flop.
  • g2 wrote: »
    The title of the OP is "How do you play the High Open ender?(with 2 overs)"

    So I felt no need to comment on the pre-flop action.

    /g2

    Yet you commented on my pre-flop action?
  • actyper wrote: »
    Yet you commented on my pre-flop action?
    I'm lost. What are you referring to?

    OK, I re-read the entire thread. I now believe your post...
    actyper wrote: »
    I shove my KQ.
    is talking pre-flop.

    I had assumed it was in response to the question asked by the OP. "How do you play the High Open ender?(with 2 overs)", which is clearly a flop question.

    /g2
  • Yeah was talking preflop, I guess me writing whats on my mind doesn't translate into full sentences. :)
  • moose wrote: »
    Think about it. It he has a pp, you are behind. If he has A high you are behind. If he hit the board you are behind. There is no flush draw for him to be semi-bluffing with. He could even be betting the same draw as you for at best a chop. There is no realistic hand he could have at this point that does not leave you behind. Best you could hope for is he is betting a Q9s or 98s draw but not likely.

    Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
    328,680 games 0.047 secs 6,993,191 games/sec
    Board: Jd Tc 3s
    Dead:
    equity win tie pots won pots tied
    Hand 0: 48.235% 46.71% 01.52% 153531 5007.00 { KdQd }
    Hand 1: 51.765% 50.24% 01.52% 165135 5007.00 { 22+, A2s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, A2o+, KTo+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o } - any pp, any broadway, any A + some of the straight draws and connected Js and 10s.

    You are putting 1800 into a 1200ish? pot when you trail in pot equity.
    Two things I don't understand in this post.

    1. "There is no realistic hand he could have at this point that does not leave you behind." A high, J9, 44-99, AJ, AT, A3, T9 are all hands where he has 14 outs and is thus slightly ahead.

    2. equity
    Hand 0: 48.235% { KdQd }
    Hand 1: 51.765% {range}
    "You are putting 1800 into a 1200ish? pot when you trail in pot equity." Without quibbling about the actual numbers, he would put 1800 into the 1200 pot but so would villain. So he is spending 1800 to win 3000 which requires 37.5% equity. The range you gave villain gives him much more equity than this. It wouldn't be enough equity if he only had his straight outs but add in the overcards and the equity climbs above 37.5% for the range.

    Personally, I would have bet into the pot on the flop since a check/check on the flop and blank on the turn would cut the equity in half. And hitting the turn might cause villain to shut down.

    I play to get it all in on this flop which means betting out either a good bet or shoving, whatever is less scary to villain.
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