C-betting after showing down a monster
From another thread:
My original note:
Quote:
You just showed down AA or KK and you get AK a few hands later, you raise. Flop comes 237 rainbow. Why continuation bet here as it's pretty obvious you didn't likely connect with that flop.
BBC Z wrote:
huh? The reason why you don't c-bet has to do with the people who called you (and their quantity). In your scenario, you SHOULD be c-betting when you just showed down AA or KK on a low flop where someone at best has a low top pair, weak kicker.
----
Trying not to derail that thread I sent him a PM that asked a followup
Doesn't c-betting this situation not make it obvious that's what you are doing? You get no cover. I wouldn't put you on AA KK again knowing you just had that hand (sure I'd be wrong sometimes but I'd be right way more than I'm wrong) If I played A7 or even a hand like Q4 or 2 low cards (where 1 hit), I wouldn't be scared of a bet from you knowing you raised pre-flop and it's in your skill-set to c-bet.
I agree about number of opponents, and their playing style. C-Bets won't work on calling stations.
He replied suggesting I make a thread about it, which is a good idea.
Any thoughts on this topic, I know people can get great cards in bunches but if you know that the person involved tends to C-bet, doesn't that flop almost ensure that's what your opponent is doing?
My original note:
Quote:
You just showed down AA or KK and you get AK a few hands later, you raise. Flop comes 237 rainbow. Why continuation bet here as it's pretty obvious you didn't likely connect with that flop.
BBC Z wrote:
huh? The reason why you don't c-bet has to do with the people who called you (and their quantity). In your scenario, you SHOULD be c-betting when you just showed down AA or KK on a low flop where someone at best has a low top pair, weak kicker.
----
Trying not to derail that thread I sent him a PM that asked a followup
Doesn't c-betting this situation not make it obvious that's what you are doing? You get no cover. I wouldn't put you on AA KK again knowing you just had that hand (sure I'd be wrong sometimes but I'd be right way more than I'm wrong) If I played A7 or even a hand like Q4 or 2 low cards (where 1 hit), I wouldn't be scared of a bet from you knowing you raised pre-flop and it's in your skill-set to c-bet.
I agree about number of opponents, and their playing style. C-Bets won't work on calling stations.
He replied suggesting I make a thread about it, which is a good idea.
Any thoughts on this topic, I know people can get great cards in bunches but if you know that the person involved tends to C-bet, doesn't that flop almost ensure that's what your opponent is doing?
Comments
Now you are in a pot again, a 7 high flop and you were the prelfop aggressor and come out betting on the flop again. What do your opponents think? Well sure, you could be betting unimproved over cards, but you are also equally likely to have a PP > 8.
You seem to be caught up in this idea that poker is played with your two cards face up for the world to see. It's not. Sure, you may get called on the flop, but when they don't improve on the turn your two-street C-bet will probably pick up the pot.
Each hand of poker is an independent event. Looks to me like you have a leak where you just assume no-one gets delt good cards on back-to-back hands, so you open up your showdown requirements and give money away.
at micro-level player that pay attention and has the ball to play back ya will move up quickly.
the fact that you just have KK and AA, most of player may not even know that.
C-bet here tell you if the station hit or not.
that board most likely miss the station, and you take it down.
if the station call, and turn does not improve your hand. your decision is easier.
the only board i will not cbet is coordinate board.
against weak villian, Cbet as much as you can.
against agressive villian, less cbet. since they can test your cbet with air.
i really don't agree with this point actually. granted i'm not a huge cash game player, so perhaps it makes more of a difference in cash games compared to tournaments. i feel that the way i've played the last few hands definitely influences how my opponents view me. i usually play fairly tight most of the time, and occasionally open it up for a few orbits to make some steals/plays and then tighten up again (in early/mid stages of tournaments).
to say that "each hand of poker is an independent event" is true in some sense, but it seems to ignore overall reads and opponents' reads on you.
that being said, do i think that if my image is tight and i get dealt AK the next hand after AA and i see a rag flop should i not c/b? no, i probably will most of the time (obviously depending on my opponent's image and numbers). do i think that c/b bets are not always a good idea and that on some rag flops it seems obvious to your opponents that you didn't hit anything? yes (see my old c/b thread where i ask opinions about c/b bet frequency in reference to "disguising" pure c/b bluffs).
YAWN. I was talking about the dealing of the cards. That's independant. If you read the rest of my post, you figure out that I'm talking about how players interpret your actions which are obviously based on your prior actions.
No really guys, when you see your cards on the computer screen.. those are YOUR cards. Everyone else at the table doesn't see them too.
The fact is, when you check, you put the onus of making the tough decision on yourself. When you bet, you put the onus on the villain.
I'm not saying it's impossible that someone gets dealt good cards on back to back hands...
However, what hands are you likely to have raised in OOP in most situations?
AA-JJ certainly
AK-AQ-AJ - almost certainly
mid pocket-pair - perhaps, but not as likely
I guess it depends on how loose you've been playing as part of the read I'd have to make but you've shown down AA a couple of hands before. Am I really to believe that you've made another monster on that type of uncoordinated board?
If you did, why would I think you'd bet it? You are facing a raggy uncoordinated board, Unless you have a bunch of opponents and the fear is they make a straight or 2 pair on the next card, aren't you checking this to have them make a pair of J's?
So what's likely, you raised some suited connectors OOP or you had AK-AQ-AJ..
Seems pretty obvious what you are trying to do here and unless my read is wrong (and that's always possible) or you have those 88's or 99's and raised them OOP (which is a possibility) then I should be OK calling here with a reasonable hand.
You mentioned MUB before, isn't that what we are doing if we fold to this situation? So to bring this full circle.. If I'm thinking like this, what is a C-bet on that flop going to do for me..
I'm out. If anyone else wants to deal with this thread, go ahead.
Ok so to clarify.. I make a statement.. you refute it.. I clarify and explain my logic and thought process in a strategy discussion post and you are 'out' with no further discussion..
WP sir.
What you should be doing is taking notes on the players who will raise an obvious missed cbet with air themselves and get ready to 3bet.
These aren't exactly the same cases but they are clearly cases of missed flops.
Here the guy donk bets me assuming I missed.
FullTiltPoker Game #6446206990: Table French (deep) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:48:44 ET - 2008/05/16
Seat 1: goforbroke0 ($93.20)
Seat 2: sgs14 ($49)
Seat 3: budgetcoach ($22)
Seat 4: Dr GameTheory ($166.95)
Seat 5: Toxzen ($50)
Seat 6: cdnmoose_8 ($106.50)
Seat 7: Texas_Crossfire ($104.20)
Seat 8: Pocket Folder ($40.15), is sitting out
Seat 9: tvlhat0329 ($79.10)
sgs14 posts the small blind of $0.25
budgetcoach posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [7s 7h]
Dr GameTheory folds
Toxzen folds
cdnmoose_8 raises to $1.75
Texas_Crossfire folds
tvlhat0329 calls $1.75
goforbroke0 folds
sgs14 folds
budgetcoach folds
*** FLOP *** [6d 3d Kh]
Pocket Folder has returned
cdnmoose_8 bets $2
tvlhat0329 raises to $5
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $17
tvlhat0329 folds
Uncalled bet of $12 returned to cdnmoose_8
cdnmoose_8 mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($13.55)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $14.25 | Rake $0.70
Board: [6d 3d Kh]
Seat 1: goforbroke0 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: sgs14 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: budgetcoach (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: Dr GameTheory didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: Toxzen didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: cdnmoose_8 collected ($13.55), mucked
Seat 7: Texas_Crossfire didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Pocket Folder is sitting out
Seat 9: tvlhat0329 folded on the Flop
Here I assume the guy missed.
FullTiltPoker Game #5874179883: Table Tiburtina - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:37:32 ET - 2008/04/01
Seat 1: SenseFailsYou ($31.70)
Seat 2: BearlyAlive ($49.50)
Seat 3: ComoPode ($122.55)
Seat 4: nonstophoops ($22.35)
Seat 5: coke99 ($50.45)
Seat 6: DABOILERMAKER ($48.15)
Seat 7: Bonebiz ($38.15)
Seat 8: cdnmoose_8 ($41.20)
Seat 9: wwshark ($54.70), is sitting out
BearlyAlive posts the small blind of $0.25
ComoPode posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [9c 9h]
nonstophoops folds
coke99 raises to $1.75
DABOILERMAKER has 15 seconds left to act
DABOILERMAKER folds
Bonebiz folds
cdnmoose_8 calls $1.75
SenseFailsYou folds
BearlyAlive folds
ComoPode folds
*** FLOP *** [Jh Jc 3d]
coke99 has 15 seconds left to act
coke99 bets $3.50
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $9.50
coke99 folds
Uncalled bet of $6 returned to cdnmoose_8
cdnmoose_8 mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($10.70)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $11.25 | Rake $0.55
Board: [Jh Jc 3d]
Seat 1: SenseFailsYou (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: BearlyAlive (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: ComoPode (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: nonstophoops didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: coke99 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: DABOILERMAKER didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Bonebiz didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: cdnmoose_8 collected ($10.70), mucked
Seat 9: wwshark is sitting out
Here's one where I am the restealer
FullTiltPoker Game #6446393530: Table Palos (deep) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:04:23 ET - 2008/05/17
Seat 1: Dr GameTheory ($98.75)
Seat 2: Toxzen ($99.75)
Seat 3: kouun ($58.40)
Seat 5: cdnmoose_8 ($79)
Seat 7: nl360 ($127.85), is sitting out
Seat 9: Texas_Crossfire ($91.50), is sitting out
kouun posts the small blind of $0.25
cdnmoose_8 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [9h Qc]
Dr GameTheory folds
Toxzen folds
jfdaud1 sits down
jfdaud1 adds $100
kouun raises to $2
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [4s Kc 2d]
kouun bets $3
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $9
kouun folds
Uncalled bet of $6 returned to cdnmoose_8
cdnmoose_8 mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($9.50)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10 | Rake $0.50
Board: [4s Kc 2d]
Seat 1: Dr GameTheory didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Toxzen (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: kouun (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: cdnmoose_8 (big blind) collected ($9.50), mucked
Seat 7: nl360 is sitting out
Seat 9: Texas_Crossfire is sitting out
Here is one where I float a guy on an obv missed flop.
FullTiltPoker Game #6420264571: Table Foy (deep) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:35:54 ET - 2008/05/14
Seat 1: super2dfx ($84.95), is sitting out
Seat 3: Cliffer ($61.20)
Seat 4: ComoPode ($68.95)
Seat 5: cdnmoose_8 ($72.60)
Seat 6: rutko1dt ($22.45)
Seat 7: cassidy1975 ($77.15)
Seat 8: bakz98 ($89), is sitting out
Seat 9: MAP741 ($26.55)
cdnmoose_8 posts the small blind of $0.25
rutko1dt posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Ac Js]
cassidy1975 folds
MAP741 folds
bakz98 stands up
Cliffer folds
ComoPode raises to $1.75
cdnmoose_8 calls $1.50
jfdaud1 adds $100
rutko1dt folds
*** FLOP *** [6d 4h Kd]
Full-max1 stands up
ReedC1 sits down
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 checks
ReedC1 adds $50
ComoPode bets $3
cdnmoose_8 calls $3
*** TURN *** [6d 4h Kd] [2s]
super2dfx has been disconnected
super2dfx has reconnected
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 bets $7
ComoPode has 15 seconds left to act
ComoPode folds
Uncalled bet of $7 returned to cdnmoose_8
cdnmoose_8 mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($9.50)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10 | Rake $0.50
Board: [6d 4h Kd 2s]
Seat 1: super2dfx is sitting out
Seat 3: Cliffer didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: ComoPode (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: cdnmoose_8 (small blind) collected ($9.50), mucked
Seat 6: rutko1dt (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: cassidy1975 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: bakz98 is sitting out
Seat 9: MAP741 didn't bet (folded)
Here is an AK cbet where it is pretty obvious I didn't hit the flop but I'm not giving up the lead on this hand.
FullTiltPoker Game #6186807396: Table Harwood - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:43:30 ET - 2008/04/26
Seat 1: sarahi miller ($52.25)
Seat 2: R3ds0nia ($13.05)
Seat 3: Nickw1979 ($54.35)
Seat 4: Tagiel ($38.05)
Seat 5: lviceman ($92)
Seat 6: Chewie510 ($23.15)
Seat 7: StevieSweet ($54.85)
Seat 8: saleen58 ($52.45)
Seat 9: cdnmoose_8 ($86.85)
sarahi miller posts the small blind of $0.25
R3ds0nia posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #9
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Kc Ac]
Nickw1979 folds
Tagiel raises to $1.50
lviceman folds
Chewie510 folds
StevieSweet folds
saleen58 folds
cdnmoose_8 raises to $4
sarahi miller folds
R3ds0nia folds
Tagiel calls $2.50
*** FLOP *** [6h 2h 2c]
Tagiel checks
cdnmoose_8 bets $7
Tagiel folds
Uncalled bet of $7 returned to cdnmoose_8
cdnmoose_8 mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($8.35)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.75 | Rake $0.40
Board: [6h 2h 2c]
Seat 1: sarahi miller (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: R3ds0nia (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 3: Nickw1979 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Tagiel folded on the Flop
Seat 5: lviceman didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Chewie510 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: StevieSweet didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: saleen58 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: cdnmoose_8 (button) collected ($8.35), mucked
Finally one more where a guy donk bets me on a flop which looks like I missed.
FullTiltPoker Game #6152316748: Table Las Flores - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:26:14 ET - 2008/04/23
Seat 1: tsapolin ($56.25)
Seat 2: ad1166 ($10)
Seat 3: cdnmoose_8 ($49.25)
Seat 4: willi172 ($30.70)
Seat 5: hammer456 ($28.15)
Seat 6: pimpen7 ($20.90)
Seat 7: Tiltasauras ($23.35)
Seat 8: Spartan1983 ($56.30)
Seat 9: Sam Willis ($22.95)
willi172 posts the small blind of $0.25
hammer456 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Ad Js]
pimpen7 has 15 seconds left to act
pimpen7 folds
Tiltasauras folds
Spartan1983 folds
Sam Willis folds
tsapolin calls $0.50
ad1166 folds
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $2.25
willi172 has 15 seconds left to act
willi172 folds
hammer456 folds
tsapolin has 15 seconds left to act
tsapolin calls $1.75
*** FLOP ***
tsapolin has 15 seconds left to act
tsapolin bets $1.50
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $6.50
tsapolin folds
Uncalled bet of $5 returned to cdnmoose_8
cdnmoose_8 mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($7.85)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.25 | Rake $0.40
Board:
Seat 1: tsapolin folded on the Flop
Seat 2: ad1166 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: cdnmoose_8 (button) collected ($7.85), mucked
Seat 4: willi172 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: hammer456 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: pimpen7 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Tiltasauras didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Spartan1983 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: Sam Willis didn't bet (folded)
I guess my point and BBC's is, sometimes I have something, sometimes I have nothing - your opponents don't know what you have. You have to recognize the steals and the opportunities for resteals. If you are not going to play the game on every street then just limp/check/call the entire time. Those type of decisions are easy, just not profitable.
You have pretty much answered your own question... you bet it because people like yourself wont think you have anything.
The fact that you have just shown down AA and KK means you should get more respect when c betting since you will have a good image since you have only shown down good hands
You make every bet for a reason. What are the reasons here?
1. You have the best hand. Do you have the best hand here? Is it possible that he called your pre-flop raise with a worse Ace and that he never hit either? How about KQ or JT, are those hands in his range? Your AK is still ahead most of the time so you should bet it here IMO.
2. You can get him to fold a better hand. How about a smaller pair? Is he willing to stack off with 44, 55, or 66 if he missed his set?
3. You have the lead in betting and your continued aggression will usually take down the pot against most garden variety opponents.
Even someone who floats a relatively high percentage of the time say 50% will be folding to your C-bet half of the time. This means that if you C-bet $3 into a $4 pot planning on giving up on the turn the play is immediately profitable.
He Folds -50 X 4 = $200
He Calls -50 X -3 = -$150
Total = $50
$50/100 hands = $0.5 per hand
This play is +EV
Check folding AK with any consistency when you miss the flop is pretty bad IMO.
First thanks for the thoughtful responses..
I'm really not trying to be stubborn and certainly see the value in C-Betting AK frequently, my original point (which I think was lost from the original forum post) was that you shouldn't bet it EVERY time.
If it's an obvious C-Bet and some of the examples Moose provided are, (based on what I know of Moose and his play style) wouldn't an astute player push back and re-raise over the top with top/mid/bottom pair even?
What would your play back at them be?
I need to be clear, I do C-Bet. I C-Bet often, but there also seems to be situations where C-Betting is not the obvious choice. It doesn't fit every hand. I would likely not C-Bet my example, as I have shown down premium hands previously and with that flop, I can't expect anyone to realistically think I hit it. I would expect to be re-raised in that situation.
Your continued help is appreciated.
Sometimes you just gotta know your player.
FullTiltPoker Game #6501346475: Table Palos Verdes - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:04:27 ET - 2008/05/21
Seat 1: Bobcat11 ($94.10)
Seat 2: TheGoatlady ($19.50)
Seat 3: slink414 ($53.85)
Seat 4: BrahmaBull ($49.75)
Seat 5: vincevangogh ($49.20)
Seat 6: meline ($54.05)
Seat 7: Trimms ($50)
Seat 8: cdnmoose_8 ($41.60)
Seat 9: TheDuke1973 ($11.25)
Trimms posts the small blind of $0.25
cdnmoose_8 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [9d 9h]
TheDuke1973 folds
Bobcat11 folds
TheGoatlady folds
slink414 folds
BrahmaBull folds
vincevangogh folds
meline folds
Trimms raises to $1.50
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $6
Trimms has 15 seconds left to act
Trimms raises to $18
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $30
Trimms has 15 seconds left to act
Trimms adds $18
Trimms folds
Uncalled bet of $12 returned to cdnmoose_8
cdnmoose_8 mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($36)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $36 | Rake $0
Seat 1: Bobcat11 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: TheGoatlady didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: slink414 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: BrahmaBull didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: vincevangogh didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: meline (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: Trimms (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: cdnmoose_8 (big blind) collected ($36), mucked
Seat 9: TheDuke1973 didn't bet (folded)
AK I cbet the vast majority of the time.
When I'm huge
FullTiltPoker Game #6354777946: Table Pluto (deep) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:06:17 ET - 2008/05/10
Seat 1: jdfz ($62.85)
Seat 2: Ballzdeepx ($60.90)
Seat 3: cdnmoose_8 ($127.40)
Seat 4: SHOVERS ($71.10)
Seat 5: eyedoctor ($100)
Seat 6: RJEJ84 ($109.15)
Seat 7: kcrawford ($48.50)
Seat 8: bigdaddy910s ($40.15)
Seat 9: SLOTrojan ($39.40)
SHOVERS posts the small blind of $0.25
eyedoctor posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Kd Ac]
RJEJ84 folds
kcrawford folds
bigdaddy910s folds
SLOTrojan raises to $1.50
jdfz folds
Ballzdeepx folds
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $4
SHOVERS folds
eyedoctor folds
SLOTrojan calls $2.50
*** FLOP *** [2c As Ks]
SLOTrojan checks
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 bets $4.50
SLOTrojan folds
Uncalled bet of $4.50 returned to cdnmoose_8
cdnmoose_8 mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($8.35)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.75 | Rake $0.40
Board: [2c As Ks]
Seat 1: jdfz didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Ballzdeepx didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: cdnmoose_8 (button) collected ($8.35), mucked
Seat 4: SHOVERS (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: eyedoctor (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: RJEJ84 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: kcrawford didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: bigdaddy910s didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: SLOTrojan folded on the Flop
When I'm not.
FullTiltPoker Game #6341000560: Table Lida (deep) - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:05:26 ET - 2008/05/08
Seat 1: mashie ($54.70)
Seat 2: mala1967 ($100.20)
Seat 3: cdnmoose_8 ($199.20)
Seat 4: justLANA ($318.15)
Seat 5: 05steel36 ($251.30)
Seat 6: tampamik ($49)
Seat 7: Jister ($92.45)
Seat 8: TNA Killerfrog ($97.50)
Seat 9: Roy Stalin ($220.50)
tampamik posts the small blind of $0.50
Jister posts the big blind of $1
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Ks Ac]
TNA Killerfrog calls $1
Roy Stalin folds
mashie folds
mala1967 folds
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $4.50
justLANA has 15 seconds left to act
justLANA calls $4.50
05steel36 folds
tampamik folds
Jister folds
TNA Killerfrog folds
*** FLOP *** [2h Jc 3d]
cdnmoose_8 bets $5
justLANA folds
Uncalled bet of $5 returned to cdnmoose_8
cdnmoose_8 mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($10.95)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $11.50 | Rake $0.55
Board: [2h Jc 3d]
Seat 1: mashie didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: mala1967 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: cdnmoose_8 collected ($10.95), mucked
Seat 4: justLANA folded on the Flop
Seat 5: 05steel36 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: tampamik (small blind) folded before the Flop
Point is, they don't know if I'm huge or not.
I don't do it every time. You have to mix it. As you say, a non-scary flop, sometimes you can check because you may still be ahead. Here I wasn't but I didn't take it too far.
FullTiltPoker Game #6299858039: Table Wetherly - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:06:05 ET - 2008/05/05
Seat 1: benkahuna ($10)
Seat 2: cdnmoose_8 ($97.95)
Seat 3: marcus1718 ($30.10)
Seat 4: theadora ($94.50)
Seat 5: mjicyveins ($49.25)
Seat 6: m4k4alx ($10)
Seat 7: SoloNapoli ($11.55)
Seat 8: Ballzdeepx ($56.85)
Seat 9: Kronprinz79 ($9.25)
theadora posts the small blind of $0.25
mjicyveins posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Kd Ac]
SoloNapoli folds
Ballzdeepx folds
Kronprinz79 folds
benkahuna folds
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $1.75
marcus1718 calls $1.75
theadora folds
mjicyveins folds
*** FLOP *** [5d 4h 9s]
SoloNapoli is sitting out
SoloNapoli stands up
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 checks
marcus1718 checks
*** TURN *** [5d 4h 9s] [5h]
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 bets $3
marcus1718 calls $3
*** RIVER *** [5d 4h 9s 5h] [4s]
cdnmoose_8 checks
marcus1718 checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
cdnmoose_8 shows [Kd Ac] two pair, Fives and Fours
marcus1718 shows [9d Jd] two pair, Nines and Fives
marcus1718 wins the pot ($9.75) with two pair, Nines and Fives
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $10.25 | Rake $0.50
Board: [5d 4h 9s 5h 4s]
Seat 1: benkahuna didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: cdnmoose_8 showed [Kd Ac] and lost with two pair, Fives and Fours
Seat 3: marcus1718 (button) showed [9d Jd] and won ($9.75) with two pair, Nines and Fives
Seat 4: theadora (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: mjicyveins (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: m4k4alx is sitting out
Seat 7: SoloNapoli didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Ballzdeepx didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: Kronprinz79 didn't bet (folded)
and here I picked one off.
FullTiltPoker Game #6299819092: Table WS2260 - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:02:39 ET - 2008/05/05
Seat 1: MauiManno ($20.90)
Seat 2: Kaktuzs ($41.85)
Seat 3: dagaffo ($58.95)
Seat 4: cdnmoose_8 ($49.25)
Seat 6: BellagioLV ($35.40)
Seat 7: doucky ($34.70)
Seat 8: nico56 ($15.85)
Seat 9: dankamero4 ($74.75)
BellagioLV posts the small blind of $0.25
doucky posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Ac Kd]
nico56 raises to $1
dankamero4 calls $1
MauiManno folds
Kaktuzs folds
dagaffo folds
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $4
BellagioLV folds
doucky folds
nico56 calls $3
dankamero4 folds
*** FLOP *** [4c 4h Kc]
nico56 checks
cdnmoose_8 checks
*** TURN *** [4c 4h Kc] [5d]
nico56 bets $5
cdnmoose_8 calls $5
*** RIVER *** [4c 4h Kc 5d] [3c]
nico56 bets $6.85, and is all in
cdnmoose_8 calls $6.85
*** SHOW DOWN ***
nico56 shows [Qc Ks] two pair, Kings and Fours
cdnmoose_8 shows [Ac Kd] two pair, Kings and Fours
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($31.80) with two pair, Kings and Fours
nico56 is sitting out
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $33.45 | Rake $1.65
Board: [4c 4h Kc 5d 3c]
Here is another one I checked
FullTiltPoker Game #6152299439: Table Elkridge - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 21:24:52 ET - 2008/04/23
Seat 1: Nickw1979 ($50)
Seat 2: cdnmoose_8 ($41.90)
Seat 3: victor lasso ($45.50)
Seat 4: Whirln Bombs ($18)
Seat 5: handyrandy777 ($10)
Seat 6: washdupracer ($22.85)
Seat 7: ragfa ($40.90)
Seat 8: PusMonkey ($40.85)
Seat 9: gladycuento777 ($43.60)
washdupracer posts the small blind of $0.25
ragfa posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [As Kh]
PusMonkey folds
gladycuento777 folds
Nickw1979 folds
cdnmoose_8 raises to $1.75
victor lasso folds
Whirln Bombs calls $1.75
washdupracer folds
ragfa folds
*** FLOP *** [Ac Ks 4d]
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 checks
Whirln Bombs bets $2
cdnmoose_8 calls $2
*** TURN *** [Ac Ks 4d] [3s]
cdnmoose_8 checks
Whirln Bombs bets $14.25, and is all in
cdnmoose_8 calls $14.25
Whirln Bombs shows [Ah 9d]
cdnmoose_8 shows [As Kh]
*** RIVER *** [Ac Ks 4d 3s] [2d]
Whirln Bombs shows a pair of Aces
cdnmoose_8 shows two pair, Aces and Kings
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($34.95) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Whirln Bombs adds $10
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $36.75 | Rake $1.80
Board: [Ac Ks 4d 3s 2d]
Seat 1: Nickw1979 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: cdnmoose_8 showed [As Kh] and won ($34.95) with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 3: victor lasso didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Whirln Bombs (button) showed [Ah 9d] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 5: handyrandy777 is sitting out
Seat 6: washdupracer (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: ragfa (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: PusMonkey didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: gladycuento777 didn't bet (folded)
and here is one where there was absolutely no point in cbetting.
FullTiltPoker Game #6142124413: Table Franklin - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:33:41 ET - 2008/04/23
Seat 1: BearlyAlive ($44.80)
Seat 2: drachdudek ($19.25)
Seat 3: b1gw1lyf15h ($37.20)
Seat 4: Mos_d ($129.20)
Seat 5: virilio ($10)
Seat 6: BullsOnParade77 ($50)
Seat 7: atticuskulaw ($36.50)
Seat 8: cdnmoose_8 ($45.85)
Seat 9: catch016 ($48.50)
atticuskulaw posts the small blind of $0.25
cdnmoose_8 posts the big blind of $0.50
virilio posts a dead small blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Ac Kh]
catch016 folds
BearlyAlive folds
drachdudek folds
b1gw1lyf15h folds
Mos_d calls $0.50
virilio calls $0.50
BullsOnParade77 folds
atticuskulaw folds
cdnmoose_8 raises to $2.50
Mos_d calls $2
virilio calls $2
*** FLOP *** [6c Ts 5d]
cdnmoose_8 checks
Mos_d checks
virilio checks
*** TURN *** [6c Ts 5d] [Jh]
cdnmoose_8 checks
Mos_d bets $3
virilio calls $3
cdnmoose_8 folds
*** RIVER *** [6c Ts 5d Jh] [9h]
Mos_d checks
virilio checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Mos_d shows [4s 6s] a pair of Sixes
virilio shows [Kd Jc] a pair of Jacks
virilio wins the pot ($13.30) with a pair of Jacks
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $14 | Rake $0.70
Board: [6c Ts 5d Jh 9h]
Seat 1: BearlyAlive didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: drachdudek didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: b1gw1lyf15h didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Mos_d showed [4s 6s] and lost with a pair of Sixes
Seat 5: virilio showed [Kd Jc] and won ($13.30) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 6: BullsOnParade77 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: atticuskulaw (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: cdnmoose_8 (big blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 9: catch016 didn't bet (folded)
Here is a limit hand but the same principle applies.
Texas Hold'em $5-$10 (real money), hand #P4-65952737-564
Table Bremerhaven, 22 Apr 2008 2:54 AM ET
Seat 1: tiquila123 ($107.00 in chips)
Seat 2: djmyst9111 ($350.00 in chips)
Seat 4: Aran_BanjoCE ($494.75 in chips)
Seat 5: bentelbow ($432.90 in chips)
Seat 6: cdnmoose06 [ AS,KD ] ($678.00 in chips)
Seat 7: orange142858 ($331.85 in chips)
Seat 8: LordRenar ($286.75 in chips)
Seat 10: Tchuguev ($22.25 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
tiquila123 posts blind ($2.50), djmyst9111 posts blind ($5).
PRE-FLOP
Aran_BanjoCE folds, bentelbow folds, cdnmoose06 bets $10, orange142858 folds, LordRenar folds, Tchuguev folds, tiquila123 calls $7.50, djmyst9111 folds.
FLOP [board cards 4H,2H,6D ]
tiquila123 checks, cdnmoose06 bets $5, tiquila123 calls $5.
TURN [board cards 4H,2H,6D,QC ]
tiquila123 checks, cdnmoose06 bets $10, tiquila123 calls $10.
RIVER [board cards 4H,2H,6D,QC,10H ]
tiquila123 checks, cdnmoose06 checks.
SHOWDOWN
tiquila123 shows [ 3S,AH ]
cdnmoose06 shows [ AS,KD ]
cdnmoose06 wins $52.25.
SUMMARY
Dealer: Tchuguev
Pot: $55, (including rake: $2.75)
tiquila123 loses $25
djmyst9111 loses $5
Aran_BanjoCE loses $0
bentelbow loses $0
cdnmoose06 bets $25, collects $52.25, net $27.25
orange142858 loses $0
LordRenar loses $0
Tchuguev loses $0
Here is one where I had a feeling something was up and got lucky.
FullTiltPoker Game #6127872194: Table Florentine - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:20:35 ET - 2008/04/21
Seat 1: cdnmoose_8 ($112.25)
Seat 2: qotsa7887 ($10.30)
Seat 3: jbatten777 ($121.05)
Seat 4: Johnny Brunson ($19.25)
Seat 5: stipey169 ($50)
Seat 6: bigpoopadump ($31.85)
Seat 7: KAMENSK1977 ($60.60)
Seat 8: KevinN ($19.25)
Seat 9: kelpiedog ($55.80)
kelpiedog posts the small blind of $0.25
cdnmoose_8 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [As Kh]
qotsa7887 folds
jbatten777 folds
Johnny Brunson folds
stipey169 folds
bigpoopadump folds
KAMENSK1977 folds
KevinN folds
kelpiedog calls $0.25
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $2
kelpiedog calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [4s Qh Ts]
kelpiedog checks
cdnmoose_8 checks
*** TURN *** [4s Qh Ts] [7c]
kelpiedog bets $2
cdnmoose_8 calls $2
*** RIVER *** [4s Qh Ts 7c] [Ad]
kelpiedog checks
cdnmoose_8 bets $4
kelpiedog calls $4
*** SHOW DOWN ***
cdnmoose_8 shows [As Kh] a pair of Aces
kelpiedog mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($15.20) with a pair of Aces
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $16 | Rake $0.80
Board: [4s Qh Ts 7c Ad]
Seat 1: cdnmoose_8 (big blind) showed [As Kh] and won ($15.20) with a pair of Aces
Seat 2: qotsa7887 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: jbatten777 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Johnny Brunson didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: stipey169 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: bigpoopadump didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: KAMENSK1977 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: KevinN (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: kelpiedog (small blind) mucked [Jd Qd] - a pair of Queens
Here is one where I got played back at in a multi-way pot so unlikely he was bluffing.
FullTiltPoker Game #6101567660: Table Jessica Marie - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:02:25 ET - 2008/04/19
Seat 1: BTF_ALL_DAY ($52.85)
Seat 2: horacio16 ($62.30)
Seat 3: CA Prime ($50)
Seat 4: Brandaan ($56.85)
Seat 5: dj jock ($70.05)
Seat 6: Adampig21 ($39.50)
Seat 7: IBFT ($50)
Seat 8: cdnmoose_8 ($43.60)
Seat 9: Owlsen ($48.60)
Owlsen posts the small blind of $0.25
BTF_ALL_DAY posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Ks Ac]
horacio16 folds
Brandaan folds
dj jock calls $0.50
Adampig21 folds
IBFT folds
cdnmoose_8 raises to $2
Owlsen has 15 seconds left to act
Owlsen calls $1.75
BTF_ALL_DAY calls $1.50
dj jock calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [9d Js 7s]
Owlsen checks
BTF_ALL_DAY checks
dj jock checks
cdnmoose_8 bets $3
Owlsen raises to $12
BTF_ALL_DAY folds
dj jock folds
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 folds
Uncalled bet of $9 returned to Owlsen
Owlsen mucks
Owlsen wins the pot ($13.30)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $14 | Rake $0.70
Board: [9d Js 7s]
Seat 1: BTF_ALL_DAY (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: horacio16 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: CA Prime is sitting out
Seat 4: Brandaan didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: dj jock folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Adampig21 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: IBFT didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: cdnmoose_8 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Owlsen (small blind) collected ($13.30), mucked
Here is another limit hand. When I see guys call down light like that I make a note and take them to value town everytime in the future.
Texas Hold'em $2-$4 (real money), hand #P4-65669534-80
Table Kristiansand, 18 Apr 2008 3:09 AM ET
Seat 1: bi_ying ($159.00 in chips)
Seat 2: Franton1 ($46.15 in chips)
Seat 3: lucky-benny ($34.45 in chips)
Seat 4: katalyser ($176.90 in chips)
Seat 6: cdnmoose05 [ AC,KS ] ($191.25 in chips)
Seat 7: buqibuqi ($89.70 in chips)
Seat 8: irieflower ($124.05 in chips)
Seat 9: Elecwarior ($231.00 in chips)
Seat 10: Cuba_Libra ($99.00 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
Cuba_Libra posts blind ($1), bi_ying posts blind ($2).
PRE-FLOP
Franton1 folds, lucky-benny folds, katalyser folds, cdnmoose05 bets $4, buqibuqi calls $4, irieflower folds, Elecwarior folds, Cuba_Libra folds, bi_ying folds.
FLOP [board cards QD,6H,7H ]
cdnmoose05 bets $2, buqibuqi calls $2.
TURN [board cards QD,6H,7H,8D ]
cdnmoose05 bets $4, buqibuqi calls $4.
RIVER [board cards QD,6H,7H,8D,2D ]
cdnmoose05 bets $4, buqibuqi calls $4.
SHOWDOWN
cdnmoose05 shows [ AC,KS ]
buqibuqi shows [ 6S,3S ]
buqibuqi wins $29.45.
SUMMARY
Dealer: Elecwarior
Pot: $31, (including rake: $1.55)
bi_ying loses $2
Franton1 loses $0
lucky-benny loses $0
katalyser loses $0
cdnmoose05 loses $14
buqibuqi bets $14, collects $29.45, net $15.45
irieflower loses $0
Elecwarior loses $0
Cuba_Libra loses $1
Here is one where I might have been floated. It's hard to say.
FullTiltPoker Game #6052768620: Table Grangeville - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:04:58 ET - 2008/04/16
Seat 1: msbuss ($96.40)
Seat 2: cdnmoose_8 ($61.20)
Seat 3: blubbar ($10.20)
Seat 4: CptnCoyote ($50)
Seat 5: mjicyveins ($52.15)
Seat 6: DIMOSS ($69.10)
Seat 7: iambobby ($20)
Seat 8: Trimms ($60.65)
Seat 9: Frakk ($49.50)
iambobby posts the small blind of $0.25
Trimms posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Kc Ah]
Frakk folds
msbuss folds
cdnmoose_8 raises to $1.75
blubbar has 15 seconds left to act
blubbar folds
CptnCoyote calls $1.75
mjicyveins folds
DIMOSS folds
iambobby adds $0.25
iambobby folds
Trimms folds
*** FLOP *** [Qd Qs Th]
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 bets $2
CptnCoyote calls $2
*** TURN *** [Qd Qs Th] [9c]
cdnmoose_8 checks
CptnCoyote bets $5.50
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 folds
Uncalled bet of $5.50 returned to CptnCoyote
CptnCoyote mucks
CptnCoyote wins the pot ($7.85)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.25 | Rake $0.40
Board: [Qd Qs Th 9c]
Seat 1: msbuss didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: cdnmoose_8 folded on the Turn
Seat 3: blubbar didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: CptnCoyote collected ($7.85), mucked
Seat 5: mjicyveins didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: DIMOSS (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: iambobby (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: Trimms (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: Frakk didn't bet (folded)
One thing I VERY rarely do, is flat call with AK. The vast majority of the time, 3 betting takes it down preflop
FullTiltPoker Game #6039940015: Table Birdwood - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 0:00:25 ET - 2008/04/15
Seat 1: Long Nguy3n ($56.35)
Seat 2: MidniteBaseball ($53.20)
Seat 3: Holly24 ($17)
Seat 4: YoungNut ($100.40)
Seat 5: cdnmoose_8 ($116.25)
Seat 6: DIMOSS ($49)
Seat 7: HaimonsK ($31.25)
Seat 8: Lucille555 ($16.15)
Seat 9: PelvisElvis ($50)
Lucille555 posts the small blind of $0.25
PelvisElvis posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #7
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Ac Ks]
Long Nguy3n folds
MidniteBaseball folds
Holly24 raises to $1.50
YoungNut folds
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 raises to $5.25
DIMOSS folds
HaimonsK folds
Lucille555 folds
PelvisElvis folds
Holly24 folds
Uncalled bet of $3.75 returned to cdnmoose_8
cdnmoose_8 mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($3.75)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.75 | Rake $0
Seat 1: Long Nguy3n didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: MidniteBaseball didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: Holly24 folded before the Flop
Seat 4: YoungNut didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: cdnmoose_8 collected ($3.75), mucked
Seat 6: DIMOSS didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: HaimonsK (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Lucille555 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 9: PelvisElvis (big blind) folded before the Flop
So would it be that I'm overthinking my opponents skill level vs. where they actually are?
And obviously it would depend on your read too. If they are a calling station who are likely to call down if they've hit anything, then obviously a C-bet is less effective there as well. Which may have been a much better example in the original thread, than my AK on that flop.
- multiway pot
- flop has a good chance of hitting oponent and you don't think you can get them off it
- flops with combo opportunities
Combo??
I have a couple opinions on the above. First, obviously you wouldn't c-bet EVERY time; but it is important to c-bet often, as many people have pointed out. Yes, people will still be suspicious; but they are more than likely to fold anyway. Unless you have notes on players specifically saying that they are willing to repop against a suspected c-bet, I would c-bet the hell out of everyone until their play tells me to stop it. It's just way too profitable a play to ease up on it. There's nothing like being pegged as a c-bettor by someone, and then when they finally choose to stand up against you, you've actually hit something, and punish them for it!
The second thing that got me thinking is how you are bringing up the fact you have shown down strong hands as a reason not to c-bet. I think you are looking at how they will react to your recent run of good hands wrong. If I see someone showdown a couple monsters, I'm not going to suspect that they are c-betting the next time the bet. It isn't the fact the had monsters at all that matters to me, it is how they played them that matters.
So did you bet your monsters preflop and then follow them up with a bet on the flop, even if it was scary, and then check it down after that..... because as a player watching your style, I would then mark you as a c-bettor and be willing to repop it when you seemed to do that... but if you played them both completely different and in a way that an astute player can't really tell anything about your overall game from then there is no reason for someone to consider them all that much when you make your c-bet.
I think those hands WOULD be important though, if you check-raised the flop both times with those monsters; and are now suddenly coming out and firing at a low flop, I may think that you missed this time, since you have shown a propensity to check-raise. OR if you came out firing both times at non-scary flops, and someone called you down, then someone may think you've got another premium hand.
So anyway, I just think it is more important to consider how you played the BIG hands, then the fact that you HAD them. Astute players are going to care about how you play your premium hands, not that you have had a bunch lately.
My c-betting play though is no-where near perfect, and I'm sort of stumbling into this thread halfway through the discussion, so let me know if I'm way off base here.
Combos - heavy draws, straight + flush, where you both could have nothing but still be behind because your opponent has better draws.
Ok last hand. Here is a guy that was clearly cbetting into the wrong board.
FullTiltPoker Game #6039242795: Table JimmytheHat19 - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:05:17 ET - 2008/04/14
Seat 1: StukOnStupid ($50)
Seat 2: chiseler1 ($20)
Seat 3: pleasebluffme12 ($56.35)
Seat 4: wlsdhr ($48.90)
Seat 6: Nas_51 ($27.10)
Seat 7: stipey169 ($82.05)
Seat 8: cdnmoose_8 ($24.45)
Seat 9: raefwonk ($36.15)
raefwonk posts the small blind of $0.25
StukOnStupid posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to cdnmoose_8 [Kc Ah]
pleasebluffme12 folds
wlsdhr folds
Nas_51 calls $0.50
stipey169 folds
cdnmoose_8 raises to $2.25
raefwonk raises to $4
StukOnStupid adds $0.50
StukOnStupid folds
Nas_51 has 15 seconds left to act
Nas_51 folds
cdnmoose_8 calls $1.75
*** FLOP *** [8s Kh 9s]
raefwonk bets $3.50
cdnmoose_8 calls $3.50
*** TURN *** [8s Kh 9s] [Qd]
raefwonk bets $4
cdnmoose_8 calls $4
*** RIVER *** [8s Kh 9s Qd] [6c]
raefwonk checks
cdnmoose_8 has 15 seconds left to act
cdnmoose_8 bets $6
raefwonk folds
Uncalled bet of $6 returned to cdnmoose_8
cdnmoose_8 mucks
cdnmoose_8 wins the pot ($22.80)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $24 | Rake $1.20
Board: [8s Kh 9s Qd 6c]
Seat 1: StukOnStupid (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: chiseler1 is sitting out
Seat 3: pleasebluffme12 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: wlsdhr didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Nas_51 folded before the Flop
Seat 7: stipey169 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: cdnmoose_8 (button) collected ($22.80), mucked
Seat 9: raefwonk (small blind) folded on the River
it kind of seems like many are disagreeing with this idea. i'm assuming that you wouldn't argue to make a c/b bet every time it's possible, would you? (i obviously see problems with this approach) so therefore, perhaps sometimes it's a better move to not make a c/b (for example, similar to zunni's example, i've just had a small run of good cards - the chances of me hitting again seem less likely (i'm aware that they aren't technically, but my opponents will most likely see it that way, and that is the important part)).
and again to BBC: wow you're such an ass. believe it or not, c/b frequency and specifically when to do it is not just simply a black or white situation. you even tell to zunni to make a thread and then when he disagrees with you you just suggest he's a moron and the thread is stupid. great stuff. and congrats again on voicing YOUR OPINION as a fact and then simply refusing to discuss the debate. let's just add this to your plethora of "helpful" posts in this forum.
how did you find players at ongame and FTP?
what made you leave town for FTP?
i recent just left FTP to go to Ongame and Prima.
Limit at FTP is definitely full of grinders and I stay away. Limit at Ongame is almost totally dead since their latest software upgrade dividing out the low. med and high tables.
I grind at both still but rarely do I find any limit games at Ongame anymore worth playing. Hence the 2/4 and 3/6 limit hands posted above - usually I'm at 5/10 or 10/20 or 15/30 but there is almost nothing at those levels anymore.
If I am on Ongame at all it will be Mon/Wed/Fri/Sat only during the happy hour specials on Hollywood Poker and at FTP Mon-Sun during any evening happy hours.
No one here is debating that there are times that you will not C-bet a flop. Lots of them. See actyprs and mooses post (right before he posted yet another unconverted hand history), those are some good examples to get started with.
Keep this in mind: Both Zunni and yourself are advocating not firing the c-bet on a flop that likely you and your opponent both missed while you are holding specifically AK.
Now I can't speak for the others in this thread but what I am advocating is that I will default to c-betting this flop with this hand UNLESS I have a specific reason not to do so. Since the only qualifying information given in the OP was that I had recently shown down a quality hand I would use this information to be more inclined to fire the c-bet.
I bet here because I very often have the best hand at this point and of the times that I don't I may get him to fold a few of the smaller pairs that are ahead of me either immediately or on subsequent streets.
That was my original point. I think I got dragged off the point when people started picking apart my example.
get call
blank Turn. Now what?
Well, to clarify. It missed your AK, we don't know if it hit our oppt. If you (based on a read) can narrow your oppt's hand range to NOT include a paired card (or a small pair), then you would not be C-betting at that point, you would be betting the best hand.
However my followup point was, for your oppt. wouldn't they want to re-pop you with pretty much ATC knowing you are very very likely to c-bet a flop like the one above? My logic as explained before would be how someone might determine what you held and realize repopping you is the right play.
So by betting a flop like that, you aren't fooling a more skilled player. Sure sometimes you will have the goods, but in most cases you won't and I can't imagine c-betting into a skilled oppt when I expect to be re-popped and have to fold.
Now, I think my leak is over-estimating the thought processes of my oppts and thereby making the wrong play against them. Any tips on how I can work to correct THAT?
If you are expecting to be raised you dont have to fold. You can 3 bet bluff shove the flop if you dont think your opponent has anything. Doing it with a hand like AK on a 732 flop is a good spot to do it since even if he stacks off with like 99 you still have 6 outs twice.
Yeah I considered this. A re-re-pop over the top may help solidify your original C-bet.However, I suspect it would make the majority of people who simply were c-betting fold.
yeah i considered this as well, however it does matter on your stack size. anything less than about 25BB before starting the hand and you're (more or less) having to push all in on the reraise. for example:
- you're in BB with 25BB
- you raise preflop to 3BB (down to 22BB with 7 1/2BB in the pot - i.e. one caller and the posted blinds)
- c/b bet on the flop 4BB (about half the pot) (down to 21 BB)
- villian raises your c/b to 12BB (standard 3x reraise; 23BBs in the pot)
at this point, you're pretty much pushing all in with AK on a rag board if you are going to re-re-pop it. and you were led to this tough position due to your alleged continuation bet. any thoughts?