Poker Tracker Rant
Hi Guys..Got back from a mexican cruise a couple weeks ago and along with some dandy thingamabobs that cost me a bundle i came back with a touch of Montezuma's revenge (well maybe a touch is understating it ...by a long shot). Anyway, my time off allowed me to reflect on a dilema I have been facing recently. And that is this...I purchased Poker Tracker at Christmas and like a good little soldier played my regular game for the month of January to build enough hands to get an idea of where I'm at in my game. January had passed and i had won over 300 for the month..a good total for me, not great but good. I looked at my stats on PT and was horrified. My vpip was nearly 45 and my AF was a touch over 1. From reading all the forums I knew this was just not good and wondered how much money I had just tossed away because of this. I vowed to better the numbers. I tightened up quite a bit and became more aggressive. I started a new data base and got to work. In February I won a total of 150. But I said to myself I'm learning to be a mean lean poker machine and this along with variance was causing the dip in my profit. Onward Christian soldier into March. The numbers improved little by little..vpip-37..af- 1.8...ahhhh the good times and greenbacks would be here soon. The end of March saw me down 200. This was a bit of a concern but not startling since I have had losing months in the past. In April my vpip had fallen to 35 and my af was over 2 and my bank account was lighter by some 550. As it turns out it was good it was only a 3 week poker month for me because of my trip.
Now don't get me wrong. I don't necessarily think PT is a bad thing and for some people it may have helped a great deal however I think it screwed up the way I play the game..the numbers got into my head and led me into thinking the game through the wrong way. All of a sudden I was worried about numbers and not about how i can win THIS pot RIGHT now no matter what the cards I was holding. When I was holding AKs and cbetting a flop that totally missed me because that's what the numbers (and every poker authority on the internet) say to do when every instinct i have telling me to back off. Oh that's just variance or maybe a bad beat or some other excuse but whatever else it may be it is STILL losing and losing in poker means losing money and that's bad. Losing 1 PF bet is bad but losing a second is far worse and a third is worse still.
The one thing PT has shown me is that poker by the numbers is not for me. I have gone back to having a vpip of between 40 and 45 and dropped my af down tp just a tad under 2 and so far this month i'm up 50..not great but on the right track (no pun intended...well maybe it was).
Just so you know these numbers are mainly from 1/2 6 max limit and some 10/20 nl.
Great to be back and thanks for letting me rant.
Now don't get me wrong. I don't necessarily think PT is a bad thing and for some people it may have helped a great deal however I think it screwed up the way I play the game..the numbers got into my head and led me into thinking the game through the wrong way. All of a sudden I was worried about numbers and not about how i can win THIS pot RIGHT now no matter what the cards I was holding. When I was holding AKs and cbetting a flop that totally missed me because that's what the numbers (and every poker authority on the internet) say to do when every instinct i have telling me to back off. Oh that's just variance or maybe a bad beat or some other excuse but whatever else it may be it is STILL losing and losing in poker means losing money and that's bad. Losing 1 PF bet is bad but losing a second is far worse and a third is worse still.
The one thing PT has shown me is that poker by the numbers is not for me. I have gone back to having a vpip of between 40 and 45 and dropped my af down tp just a tad under 2 and so far this month i'm up 50..not great but on the right track (no pun intended...well maybe it was).
Just so you know these numbers are mainly from 1/2 6 max limit and some 10/20 nl.
Great to be back and thanks for letting me rant.
Comments
huh?
You didn't have enough hands in your January sample to be relevant.
The intervening month's hands added on: You still don't have enough hands to be relevant.
I've never looked into it, but the #'s for limit may be different than for NL...
Mark
P.S. did you mean .10 / .20 NL? Because otherwise, tell me that should be 100/200 limit
I knew this would start a fuss with all those who swear by PT. And it's you're right to defend it..makes no difference to me. Having said that, don't start talking about the relevance of nebulous numbers. How many hands are relevant???..10,000..20,000 some say 100,000. The only number that IS relevant is the number written on the chips in front of you and the number of them you have. A simple question..would you rather have played poorly by the numbers and won 100 dollars or played perfectly by the numbers and lost 100 dollars. And please spare me the gibberish about ROT..I've read enough about it to fill 3 books and it makes no sense other than to provide an excuse for losing. Because when all is said and done, unless you're wealthy, there is no tomorrow if money is flying out of your pocket today.
I know there are a lot of people that swear by PT and if it helped them then that's great. All I'm saying is that it hurt my game and i'm sure i'm not alone.
Filter your results. Did you lose more in limit or nl?
also you probably dont have anywhere near a statistically significant sample size and based on your response above you dont seem to understand any statistical concepts about poker and you are a results oriented thinker and anything said in this thread wont help you
WFR violation.....
Why do people ask questions that they only wish to hear one answer to anyways?
Mark
Did not read through that massive mess of a post from OP, but based on the responses I will say that anyone who can manage to lose $550 at 10/20 cent limit is pretty much beyond help. Best suggestion is play much less and play for fun, and applying pokertracker rules that work for a 6 max $10/20 6-max limit game may not be ideal.
But it impresses the ladies... wait... what the fuck would I know about that....
Mark
i think both scenarios presented here are not representing the best scenario. i don't think there are too many people who would argue to purely play by the numbers alone, nor are there too many people who would argue to purely play without the numbers. you should obviously consider the math, but there's a lot more to poker than just the math.
my advice is don't play purely on one side or the other. poker is a game of feel and reaction. if all it took was the proper mathematical calculations and actions, a lot more people would be rich poker players.
Sounds like you recognize that you play too loose and are using the feedback of poker tracker to try to correct it.
It's a fun to review your poker tracker stats every 10,000 hands or so and try to see how you compare to the "suggested" stats whatever that might be. Doing it more than every 10,000 hands causes paranoia.
Your problem is easy to fix.
Here is what I suggest the OP do.
1. Get a book with good set of starting hands and preflop strategy- There are a ton of them. I use Holdem Poker for Advanced Players. But you would be fine with Small Stakes Holdem or Low Limit Holdem or Getting Started in Holdem or Internet Texas Holdem or ....
2. Make a little chart and put it on your computer.
3. Follow the chart.
4. Problem solved.
5. Spend the rest of your efforts on improving your post-flop game. That is where you should be concentrating your time. After you play reasonably well preflop don't worry about it.
6. Put white space in your next post.
7. Reply so we can see how you're doing.
8. Don't worry about the downswings. I've lost 300 big blinds in a week.
Cole's notes and paragraphs FTW?
OP returns from holiday without his meds and hacks out a post in a clearly manic state.
OP states the following:
- was winner over one month sample with his OLD game
- is now losing since purchasing Poker Tracker
- Poker Tracker much like Vicki Vallencourt, is the devil.
Easy on the Dennis Millerisms plz.
/g2
That being said I have to clear up a few things...I have been playing online for 3 years and have built my bankroll to 3000 from scratch starting with freeroll sng's. I lost the 550 playing mainly 1/2 limit.
New paragraph for Kristy.
Another new one just for the hell of it.
Now the point I was trying to make is this.. and I'll try to be crystal clear for all those who didn't get it the last time. I don't think PT was created for 6 max limit games or more precisely the people who interpret the numbers don't take into account the differences in the 6 max game. I can see where these numbers work for full ring nl primarily because from utg to the 5th seat you will perhaps play 10% of the hands. The only seat that is totally card dependant in 6 max is utg. This skews the numbers drastically upward and in trying to force the number down I was mucking many playable hands.
I just don't believe anymore that you can apply full ring nl numbers to 6 max limit. That's all.
If a post reads like your original post in this thread you will get picked on. It comes across as bitter and emotional and lacking in an attempt at understanding. Maybe not your intent but that is how it comes across. For all the people who get pissy about sarcastic comments to their posts, here is my message to you:
Put as much time into your original post as you expect me to put into the response. You want me to think about my answer? Then think about your post. Read it over before you click that submit button. Think about how it will be interpreted.
If your OP read:
I seemed to be confident and winning until I bought PT and now my game has seemingly gone to shit. I have been trying to change my game a bit, I hope for the better but my bankroll is taking some hits and it is affecting my confidence.
What am I doing wrong? Does it really work for 6 max or is it more usefull in FR?
You would get nothing but serious replys.
To answer your (statement)?
PT is useful in all forms of poker. It can tell you what is exploitable in your opponents game, it can tell you what is exploitable in your own game. That is all. Don't try and become a stat bot by playing a certain VPIP a certain PFR because you read that is the way to go. Do it for the right reasons.
LAGing it up can be profitable. You just have to have the patience to only play in the right games.
There is so much data there for you to use in your games. To call it useless is just silly. Read about how to use it. Think about how you can use the info that it packages up for you to exploit your opposition:
Is he too loose pre? Tighten up a bit and start 3 betting him.
Does he call to many flops? Get those value bets in there.
Does he show up light on the river? Call him down lighter and value bet him thin.
It isn't rocket science you just have to think about it.
PS. You will experience growing pains continually as you try and improve. It is all part of the process of growing. You don't want it all to come together too fast anyway. When it gets too easy you stop learning and challenging your self.
Sticky plz. Well said.
Pretty standard here.
It is a small sample size as you know. If you feel the software is throwing you off your game......Well then ....gasp..maybe it is! to the horror of the message board know it all's and arm chair critics.
Fact is..sharkscope was costing me at one point (calling fish light too early)...where I was better off not using it.
It's a good tool.....but if it's srcewing with you...maybe stop using it for a bit..and don't let anyone lecture you any differently?
Flame Away...
I agree with what others have said about not having a tool dictate your game, rather it should assist it. A couple of years ago my 4 month stats on the 2/4 and 3/6 BBJ Party tables indicated I was a tight aggressive eagle, but I was getting crushed.
I was actually playing a bit too aggressively and a bit too tight for the 45-60% full ring VPIP tables where usually 5+ people were going to a flop. I started concentrating more on playing hands that were a bit better for those types of games and the results improved quite a bit even though I was technically playing in a more semi loose semi tight manner.
Poker is not a game where you can read a few rules and strategies and implement them blindly. You will get crushed if you do that.
For example, I don't recall ever reading that when you have AKs you HAVE to continuation bet every single time. Not only does this make you predictable but it sometimes just doesn't make sense. You just showed down AA or KK and you get AK a few hands later, you raise. Flop comes 237 rainbow. Why continuation bet here as it's pretty obvious you didn't likely connect with that flop.
Expected numbers for PT are there to help borderline break-even and losing players potentially see where they are playing too many hands or not being aggressive enough. This advise is generally sound however trying to shape your game to match what's considered to be optimum means you are likely missing opportunities.
What I'm trying to say is raising any hand preflop or folding any hand pre-flop adjust your VPIP and PRF stats, but it doesn't make it the right play for that particular hand.
huh? The reason why you don't c-bet has to do with the people who called you (and their quantity). In your scenario, you SHOULD be c-betting when you just showed down AA or KK on a low flop where someone at best has a low top pair, weak kicker.
Poker Tracker is not an entity, it is not a philosophy, it is pretty much the most unbiased look at your game you can get. Poker Tracker is factual numbers. That's it.
The INTERPRETATION of said numbers is where people get confused. Either by paying too much / little attention to certain numbers or not understanding exactly what they mean.
When it comes to statistics, they never lie, but they sure can hide the truth.
Mark
I'll take this discussion to a new thread in teh strat forum.