5/5 nl interesting spot -cards shown
the discussion of showing cards in another thread reminded me of something that happened a couple weeks ago.
i'm playing in another one of those loose semi-aggressive games. the 3 players to my right (including one cute young asian woman) had been raising most pots and firing all the way to the river. i'm sure you know the kind of play.
this hand, of them them raises it up in EP to 30 (standard play for him). next aggressive guy folds (i guess he got the signal it was the other guy's turn this hand) and i look down at 99. i'm pretty sure i'm ahead but not sure about everyone behind (they are looking for a reason to re-raise these guys). i call. likely not the best play but i didn't want to play for stacks against one of the tighter players behind me (lol as if anyone at that table could be called 'tight'). i guess no one else picked up anything since it was only the blinds that came along.
the flop comes KT9 with 2 spades. i have 9s. checked to me and i bet 75. fold, fold and the original raiser check raises me to 175. we each have at least 400 behind. we are heads up. as i'm trying to decide what the best course of action is (he could be raising from EP PF with KK, TT, KT, K9, any pair, spades, total air, who the **** knows), he puts his cards out in front of him and motions for me to pick a card. i ask him 'you want me to pick a card and you'll show me?' he concurs. so i pick one and he shows Kh. hmmm, i was hoping that would've helped me but now i had to worry about KK (although i doubt he goes for a check raise with a straight draw and flush draw on the board).
so i think for a bit more and got brave and asked 'how about the other one?' and he flips over Th. now he says 'so just fold and lets get on with the next hand'. 'but i have so many outs!' i say. right away he says 'AsQs, eh?'.
what to do? what to do? i recall a post on 2+2 a while back with a similar situation where the guy got reamed out by other posters for softplaying it just because the other guy was stupid enough to show him his non-nut cards.
i'm playing in another one of those loose semi-aggressive games. the 3 players to my right (including one cute young asian woman) had been raising most pots and firing all the way to the river. i'm sure you know the kind of play.
this hand, of them them raises it up in EP to 30 (standard play for him). next aggressive guy folds (i guess he got the signal it was the other guy's turn this hand) and i look down at 99. i'm pretty sure i'm ahead but not sure about everyone behind (they are looking for a reason to re-raise these guys). i call. likely not the best play but i didn't want to play for stacks against one of the tighter players behind me (lol as if anyone at that table could be called 'tight'). i guess no one else picked up anything since it was only the blinds that came along.
the flop comes KT9 with 2 spades. i have 9s. checked to me and i bet 75. fold, fold and the original raiser check raises me to 175. we each have at least 400 behind. we are heads up. as i'm trying to decide what the best course of action is (he could be raising from EP PF with KK, TT, KT, K9, any pair, spades, total air, who the **** knows), he puts his cards out in front of him and motions for me to pick a card. i ask him 'you want me to pick a card and you'll show me?' he concurs. so i pick one and he shows Kh. hmmm, i was hoping that would've helped me but now i had to worry about KK (although i doubt he goes for a check raise with a straight draw and flush draw on the board).
so i think for a bit more and got brave and asked 'how about the other one?' and he flips over Th. now he says 'so just fold and lets get on with the next hand'. 'but i have so many outs!' i say. right away he says 'AsQs, eh?'.
what to do? what to do? i recall a post on 2+2 a while back with a similar situation where the guy got reamed out by other posters for softplaying it just because the other guy was stupid enough to show him his non-nut cards.
Comments
I already have my stack in the middle before any of the card showing shenanigans begins.
I'm with you Caddy...why mess with the dude's mind at this point? Just push and get him to call you down
But with that said..show at 9 and then move all in
I don't think he can put you squarely on a set on that board. You could shove a ton of hands from TPTK to any one of the 8 million semi-bluffs out there.
PS. Live donks don't fold two pair
PAY DAY!
+1, as Steve Miller would say, "go on, take the money and run!". I don't think you are getting any more money out of this guy. You could try the min raise and tell him if he calls it you will show him one of your cards. I saw the same thing a couple a weeks ago when a player flipped his cards on the river, not realizing one player was still in the hand.
i'm sitting with the 4th nuts here (with reasonable redraws against the 1st nut but 1 out against 2nd and 3rd) against a guy, albeit laggy, who has raised from EP and CR'd a tight player on a very co-ordinated flop.
you don't stop for a second to consider you could be behind here? or maybe a call or some kind of raise might be a better move? or is this one of those 'you can't EVER not push with a set' kind of things?
Maybe just maybe against a regular who I have history with and I KNOW that he never check raises with anything less than the stone cold nuts I could consider a fold here. However your initial read is that this guy is a total LAG tard and this player, on this wet board can make this play with far too many hands for me to fold.
I would rather get all the money in now while he still has hope of hitting his draw than letting him get away later in the hand.
Plus there is no raise size that makes sense other than a shove.
Effective stacks $600
$120 in the pot preflop.
$120 + ($175 X 2) = $470
Pot has $470 in it and if you shove now he is getting a bit better than 2-1
STICK IT IN!!!!
edit: If he has QJ I still have good equity. If he has KK or TT exactly. GG me.
Obviously if he doesn't show the shove is good.
I was referring to the fact that I would get it in pretty quick here and why.
As played and we know his hand I probably call his check/raise hope he puts me on a draw. We have position here too don't forget. If he doesn't lead the turn we can get more in there. I don't like waiting for this river to get more in if he checks the turn because there are lot of cards that can kill your action on this board.
Edit: I think he is going to have a hard time folding his hand after showing it to you.
well, i thought about it after i saw his cards. he has me mostly on a flush draw, since i mentioned my outs. he was even going through my odds to suck out, etc. very amusing.
for sure if i called here and another spade came (semi-likely), my action is dead. if i call and he hits any of his outs (unlikely), i don't lose any more money. if none of that happens, the stacks are likely going in on the turn. i think there is about a 1 in 4 chance of a 'unsafe' turn (spade, K or T).
i think a small raise would set of alarm bells, given the smallish stacks. when it happens to me, i always figure a raise that wants a call should be disappointed, unless there's some kind of head game at play. so i ruled that out.
as to pushing, if i do that, i'm either on a strong draw to beat him (flush + straight) - which i guess he could be slightly behind, already way ahead (straight or set and not really afraid of his redraw) or on a total bluff (possible since he's been dumb enough to show his cards). (also a bit of history, his buddy had been on the receiving end of the sickest bluff ever a short while back and i had been needling those 3 for some time about it, so it may be in the back of his mind that i might try something like this. i may write about this bluff sometime for laughs)
in the end i did opt to push. i thought that had a good chance of being called but now i'm not sure if i should have waited for the turn, given i had position. you should have seen him squirm after i pushed! he asked to see my 2 cards, then just 1 card, then started whining about showing me his cards being a bad idea. i and the rest of the table had a good laugh while he was going on. in the end i turned his words on him and said 'so fold and let's get on with the game'. after a long while he folded but he was not at all happy about it. lesson learned? nah.
Thinking about it, flatting here and pushing turn might be a better play? It gives him another chance to bet to try to chase you out of your "draw"...and I don't think the chance of him calling after showing you both cards it as high as it may seem. You do run the risk of having a scare card fall but I think you might get more money out of him by waiting until the turn.
i'm wondering if in the back of my mind i wanted to give him a chance to get away from the hand with most of his stack since he had been sincere in showing me his. god i hope not! this is pretty much exactly what the guy said in his 2+2 thread but he was much more generous with his opponent and cut a deal to let him take some chips back.
Since he stupidly showed his two cards, you now have perfect information and your job continues to be to choose the action that maximizes EV. Given that he still has a 17.5% chance of beating you, I would just call his raise. He continued with his stupidity by saying what he thinks you have, so you will probably get more money from him if there is no J or spade on the turn. I would just call any bet on the turn. Since you have perfect information, you save $400 if he hits one of his four outs on the turn or river. Otherwise, he will probably feel pot-committed with top two pair on the river and call off his remaining chips.
If I can bet and get him to put the rest of his money in on the turn while he is drawing to 6 outs I am doing it. If he leads the turn I put him the rest of the way in every time.
my min raise never seems to work on you at GTown?
But the idea of flatting turn and shoving any turn (of course unless K or 10 hits) is what you're suggesting since we have position.
thanks for the feedback, folks. guilty of misplaying another big hand. i think a smooth call coupled with getting it in on the turn one way or another would have maximized my earn here. i get so few of these big hands i really must focus on maximizing.
No, I say flat the flop and get it in on the turn. When I call his flop chk/raise I want him to put me on a draw. There are a ton scare cards that could come that could somehow get him to shut down but if the turn blanks and he fires at the pot I think I can get him to put the rest of his stack in drawing super thin.
Any spade, 8, Jack, Queen or or Ace on the river could possibly kill my action.
I would call here hope for a blank and then see what he does. If he thinks you have a draw he will most likely bet on a blank turn at which point you ship it on him.
I think a Min bet screams that you have him beat here so that is out of the question.
BTW thanks for the post, you have been making some great post.
Yeah, the Jack may be pushing it but the Ace could make a better 2 pair.
I think we're both suggesting/agreeing to the same play here.
p.s. i'm sure you meant 8 rather than J since he clearly put me on AsQs. but enough quibbling...
i admit i misplayed this hand. in the heat of the battle i didn't think through the options carefully enough. i'm spending more time thinking through my sessions now and i notice a number of hands that i have messed up. as a tight player, i drag in relatively few pots so it is very important for me to maximize the ones i do. at least i didn't fold...
You can rep a huge number of hands in this spot and you are getting a pretty good price given the situation.