Good Fold, or I am an Idiot? (PLO)

Graham

Drawy board, called flop planning to shove anything other than spade or or something to complete an open ended draw but spade came so I had to decide.... right play or wrong play... what do you think?

PokerStars Game #17094658614: Omaha Pot Limit ($1/$2) - 2008/04/30 - 01:48:55 (ET)
Table 'Grus II' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: sodapop ($226.15 in chips)
Seat 2: ELHUE ($313.25 in chips)
Seat 3: closemaster ($164.65 in chips)
Seat 5: BENZZBOY ($110 in chips)
Seat 6: MYNUTZ1 ($172.80 in chips)
MYNUTZ1: posts small blind $1
sodapop: posts big blind $2
DBS333: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to closemaster [Ad Jc 5d Ac]
ELHUE: folds
closemaster: raises $5 to $7
BENZZBOY: folds
MYNUTZ1: folds
sodapop: calls $5
*** FLOP *** [Jd As 8s]
sodapop: checks
closemaster: bets $10
sodapop: raises $34.25 to $44.25
closemaster: calls $34.25
*** TURN *** [Jd As 8s] [4s]
sodapop: bets $101.50
closemaster: folds
sodapop collected $101.50 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $103.50 | Rake $2
Board [Jd As 8s 4s]
Seat 1: sodapop (big blind) collected ($101.50)
Seat 2: ELHUE folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: closemaster folded on the Turn
Seat 5: BENZZBOY (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: MYNUTZ1 (small blind) folded before Flop

JohnnieH

Should have re-popped the flop raise. You were ahead.

GTA Poker

Wow, you have to push the flop for sure. You're setting yourself up for so many bluffs and playing way too carefully with your flop line. As played, you have to fold the turn.

Also, playing carefully and pushing a blank turn you make less money on your made hands vs non-clueless players.

This hand shows the higher variance in PLO vs NLH (assuming opponent had flush draw with some kind of wrap or oesd) -- getting it in with top set you may just be a slight favourite here (or even a slight dog I think to a full wrap and flush draw, moreso in that you're holding a J in your hand), but you have to push those small edges and have many buy-ins at the ready.

Graham

Let me add I had been playing with this guy all night and he would bet the flop every time. And if he got called he would check turn if he was bluffing... he never really continued betting unless he had a hand. I was waiting for a hand like this but the spade was the worst card here on the turn. I agree that I probably should have pot-bet the flop but with so many potential drawing hands that would have called a raise pre-flop I think he probably would have called and I would have gotten burned on the turn. That is why I figured I would just call the flop and shove almost anything else on the turn to reduce risk of going busto on that hand. It was a conservative play, and probably the most conservative of the session.

BBC Z

+1 on the bad lines call. When you decide to call on the flop, you are also deciding to call any scare card.

I agree that I probably should have pot-bet the flop but with so many potential drawing hands that would have called a raise pre-flop I think he probably would have called and I would have gotten burned on the turn.

JAH, please tell this man where he is going wrong with his thinking.

GTA Poker

Graham wrote: »

Let me add I had been playing with this guy all night and he would bet the flop every time. And if he got called he would check turn if he was bluffing... he never really continued betting unless he had a hand. I was waiting for a hand like this but the spade was the worst card here on the turn. I agree that I probably should have pot-bet the flop but with so many potential drawing hands that would have called a raise pre-flop I think he probably would have called and I would have gotten burned on the turn. That is why I figured I would just call the flop and shove almost anything else on the turn to reduce risk of going busto on that hand. It was a conservative play, and probably the most conservative of the session.

That's why you want the money in on the flop -- you have redraws to a flush but aren't allowed to see them with your line.

Also, you have a monster on the flop and by your reasoning he is check/folding on the turn with air, so you aren't making any money in that spot anyhow.

SMOOTH55

Graham:

I think your mistake in this hand was that you didn't plan it out properly from begining to end. When you called the raise on the flop you hit the commitment threshold - the next bet was definitely going to be all in. So you should have already known what to do prior to that - it would have made the hand play out so much easier. Instead, you got raised on the flop, was unsure what to do, just called, didn't think that with the call you were essentially committing to the pot on the very next bet. You opponent went all in on the turn when a bad card hit, and put yourself in a really bad spot.
If instead you re-potted the flop, you would have had an easy all-in on the turn. You might be behind on the turn but the bulk of the money went in on the flop when you were most likey a favorite. One of the keys to any PL or NL game is to avoid these bad spots. I think a lot of the theories discussed in Professional NL Hold'em Vol I applies to this case and your hand played out here is a classic example (Stack/Pot Ratio, commitment thresholds).

As an aside - if you were really deep, then calling the flop raise isn't a big mistake, but with the stack sizes no re-potting was def. an error.