A Situation I Encounter Often Deep in Tournies

Monteroy

$5 multi tourney on Stars, a bazillion entries, flat payout structure where basically final table is all that matters, 40-50 players left I am in SB with a stack thats below average though not in desperate situation yet. BB is in bad shape with only 3ish BBs left before posting his BB


PokerStars Game #17078342271: Tournament #86445800, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (600/1200) - 2008/04/29 - 12:21:58 (ET)
Table '86445800 13' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: Dadaax (15183 in chips)
Seat 2: tmhman (18045 in chips)
Seat 3: badassnr1 (24030 in chips)
Seat 4: g star1975 (42126 in chips)
Seat 5: karen19 (102623 in chips)
Seat 6: knakky (92379 in chips)
Seat 7: johnwartique (21838 in chips)
Seat 8: Monteroy (11987 in chips)
Seat 9: getgotya (4627 in chips)
Dadaax: posts the ante 125
tmhman: posts the ante 125
badassnr1: posts the ante 125
g star1975: posts the ante 125
karen19: posts the ante 125
knakky: posts the ante 125
johnwartique: posts the ante 125
Monteroy: posts the ante 125
getgotya: posts the ante 125
Monteroy: posts small blind 600
getgotya: posts big blind 1200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Monteroy [4s 6c]
Dadaax: folds
tmhman: folds
badassnr1: folds
g star1975: folds
karen19: folds
knakky: folds
johnwartique: folds
Monteroy: raises 10662 to 11862 and is all-in
getgotya: calls 3302 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [7d 6s Jc]
*** TURN *** [7d 6s Jc] [Tc]
*** RIVER *** [7d 6s Jc Tc] [Ah]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Monteroy: shows [4s 6c] (a pair of Sixes)
getgotya: shows [9d Jd] (a pair of Jacks)
getgotya collected 10129 from pot


There is already 3k in the middle with the blinds and antes and he has about 3k left.

Is this one of those annoying auto shoves hope you are only a 3-2 type dog type situations? I do find once in a while the BBs fold which shocks me which is why I pretty much always make this play given the structure of the tournament payouts.

I always kind of secretly hope the button raises so I can fold my trash in peace I admit :P

cadillac

If he has any type of a clue he is calling real wide here and your hand is and easy fold.

You have 0 fold equity when he is getting 3-1

Monteroy

Yes I know that, but my point is I am also essentially getting nearly 3-1 and the payout structure of the tournament is very, very flat so finishing 47th vs 27th does not matter, while making the final table is what matters. Hence, is gambling it up in this spot, as annoying as it is worthwhile with making the final table as the primary goal in mind?

And yes while he really has no fold equity sometimes these guys fold, even if it is to make the next money level of a buck or something. Many times I have been happy when button raised since I didn't have to bother then watched the BB fold and be stunned at that. Kind of why I usually make this play.

cadillac

Your argument is sound. I am just saying that 64o is just not a good enough hand in this spot unless he folds a ridiculous amount.

cadillac

scratch that. If he calls with 80% you still have enough equity. It just seems kinda thin because it is 25% of your chips.

SirWatts

If there's any chance if he folds a better hand you gotta shove. If he's not an idiot you should probably fold.

_obv_

I think at that level people will fold in the BBs spot sometimes so i think shoving is fine

m_dolens

is he short because he lost a big hand or he's really tight and has just been eaten up by the blinds? if it's the former i fold, if it's the latter i push.

personally, i would have folded. i really feel that too many players make plays similar to this situation merely due to the math alone. i agree that by the math you most likely should just push. however, the math does not necessarily relate to the best overall winning decision in all situations.

Fludlerk

To me, this is a fold situation. The problem is that the BB is shortstacked, so for him folding his BB is not a good option, as it makes it so much the harder to recover when he's already short stacked, so unless he has a truly pathetic hand (J 9 is not so pathetic) he's at a point where he might as well go for it.

With a 64o, it's a situation where you know he'll more than likely call you so you're probably just giving away a double up. Now, if you have a mediocre or better hand then the allin push makes sense because at least you have a decent chance of drawing to eliminate him.

JMHO