I can't resist saying that I hate metaphor arguments. The topic you are discussing is never the same as the substitution. Next you get derailed into a conversation about why the metaphor isn't appropriate and neglect the original question.
hmm...why don't some people improve....several reasons I guess.
1. Some people still don't see it as a game of skill. They still see it as a gambling game. Sad, but true.
2. Some people claim that they are trying to approve their game by reading books and such. However, they are not applying the concepts in those books to their game properly. I know there are several times where I've reviewed some of my books and found things that I've overlooked or concepts that I didn't understand the first time I read it.
3. Some people hit a "heater" when they start to play. However, they don't realize that their fundamental playing skills suck. We have all been at tables (B&M or online) where people have called raises with garbage hands and have won big pots. They think they are playing great when other players know that these players will go broke eventually.
4. Some people know the fundamentals (position, suggested starting hands etc...) but their metagame needs work. For example, they may only be level 1 thinkers and are only concerned with their hand. However, they never think about what other players could be holding or what other players think that he is holding. These are the players who wonder why their pocket kings never hold up to an obvious flush that another player is holding based on the board and their opponents betting patterns.
5. Poor table selection. Imagine a 10NL game online with 4 or 5 players with 20 dollars in their stack. These players think "a lot of money on this table to be won" while other players think "hmm....a 10 dollar max buyin and there are several players above that....several winning players here...maybe I'll try another table..."
6. Some players play socially more than trying to win. The casino is their social club more than anything.
The list could go on but probably a good starting point.
- introduction - Plays any two cards and gets lucky and wins a couple pots. No concern for calling any raise or playing position;
- growth - decides to read some books and starts to tighten up their game and only play the top ten hands. Starts to learn more about the importance of position.
- mature stage - graduates from tournaments to cash games and plays a tight aggressive game with emphasis on position; constantly gets beat by chumps playing 72off. Starts to believe that any two cards can win, regardless of position;
- decline stage - starts to play any two cards. No concern for calling any raise or playing position.
Maybe these players are in the mature/decline stage
Oh man you guys are all so smug and self-important.
THe reason why people LOSE consistently is simple. They are drunk (or on drugs), THey are consistently playing drunk. Playing drunk and not playing well.
What do you think? Do you think there are thousands of people who are smart enough to have the kind of job that lets them blow hundreds of dollars each month playing poker and still pay the rent and then when it comes to poker they can't do basic math?
Oh man you guys are all so smug and self-important.
THe reason why people LOSE consistently is simple. They are drunk (or on drugs), THey are consistently playing drunk. Playing drunk and not playing well.
What do you think? Do you think there are thousands of people who are smart enough to have the kind of job that lets them blow hundreds of dollars each month playing poker and still pay the rent and then when it comes to poker they can't do basic math?
Oh man you guys are all so smug and self-important.
THe reason why people LOSE consistently is simple. They are drunk (or on drugs), THey are consistently playing drunk. Playing drunk and not playing well.
What do you think? Do you think there are thousands of people who are smart enough to have the kind of job that lets them blow hundreds of dollars each month playing poker and still pay the rent and then when it comes to poker they can't do basic math?
Drugs and alcohol
PS - there are thousands of alcoholic lawyers.
Adding to list:
7. They don't improve because they are drunk at the table...and are in the legal profession.
What do you think? Do you think there are thousands of people who are smart enough to have the kind of job that lets them blow hundreds of dollars each month playing poker and still pay the rent and then when it comes to poker they can't do basic math?
Yes I do.. In fact I work with people who can't add 2+2 and yet make $70,000 a year. They can teach the hell outta geography or history or english but can't balance a check book.
Oh man you guys are all so smug and self-important.
THe reason why people LOSE consistently is simple. They are drunk (or on drugs), THey are consistently playing drunk. Playing drunk and not playing well.
What do you think? Do you think there are thousands of people who are smart enough to have the kind of job that lets them blow hundreds of dollars each month playing poker and still pay the rent and then when it comes to poker they can't do basic math?
Drugs and alcohol
PS - there are thousands of alcoholic lawyers.
100s a month really isn't that big a deal to most I imagine as compared to other entertainment expenses.
I'm a winning player but I still struggle with the following areas:
1. Playing tired and tilting as a result of impatience,
2. Playing when I'm not focused for other reasons,
3. Rarely tilting and moving up limits (badddd),
So, being a player who puts a lot into his game I still struggle with these areas at times -- I play regularly with extremely emotional/tilty players who can't control any of the above, so it's not hard for me to comprehend how players some players consistently lose/never improve.
Lots of good stuff written in this thread, though again I want to make the minor distinction in that I understand why people continue to lose (emotional control, lack of math skills etc), however I still would like to think that even with these flaws they will lose at a slower pace over time simply by making slightly better choices overall such as folding complete trash hands pre-flop.
Since the golf analogy is beaten to a pulp, let me use a different card game, blackjack. If you take a really bad player and just have him switch one simple thing like never take insurance and even let him use his gut feelings or whatever dumb rituals he uses for every other situation he will still lose badly , but he should lose at a slightly lower rate in the long term.
Perhaps in poker, the other variables (ie: emotional control) dominate the impact that unintended improvement through long term exposure to the game should provide even the worst players.
Did you just make that Life Cycle up, or read it somewhere? If so, where?
/g2
stages are a given and the comments are based on personal observations. Although hopefully I have got past the decline stage for good now. You can see these decline players in any casino, any night of the week. Some call them regulars or grinders. Although the real difference between a grinder and a decline player is a grinder has mastered the art of position. They will beat you with any two cards because they get to act last.
i'am one of those players that never seem to improve that you talk about.
i wish i could improve but nothing seems to work.
i play between 10-15 tourney's a day on ub /pokers stars/action/ and few others sites and i alway,s play very well for the first hour to one and half hours then i always lose to a bad beat. my full house loses to four of a kind of my staright to a flush or full house always at the 3/4 4/5 way the tourney never ,never do i get to the money. i have been this way for over 6months i play seven days a week trying to improve i even will after i build up a very good chip say 15000/20000 chip count go away from the tourney and still i blind out at exactly 3/4/ to 5/6 the way through the tourney i tried playin very very tight then i tried very very lose playin every other hand nothing changes always 3/4 5/6 through the tourney even small ones 350 players to large ones 5000 plus types.
how do you get over that hump 3/4 to 5/6 bump out
i know its something i 'am doing but what any advicecan anyone give to try at least once to get to a final table or at least top 30 of any tourney's whats is the secret guys come an help an old man find the answer before i die at the kitchen table playin this game.
Some people don`t improve because they simply can`t fit in...find something else, go bowling!!
By the way, we`ll have an open table for strip poker (yes, it`s true ):)
at the <LINK REMOVED> resort in June 13th-16th. House full of blondes, men will have to wear their CKs or look like idiots! Here`s a photo I like to motivate the guys ::s::s::s::s:
Some people don`t improve because they simply can`t fit in...find something else, go bowling!!
By the way, we`ll have an open table for strip poker (yes, it`s true ):)
at the LINKSPAMREMOVED resort in June 13th-16th. House full of blondes, men will have to wear their CKs or look like idiots! Here`s a photo I like to motivate the guys ::s::s::s::s:
Some people don`t improve because they simply can`t fit in...find something else, go bowling!!
By the way, we`ll have an open table for strip poker (yes, it`s true ):)
at theLINKSPAMREMOVED resort in June 13th-16th. House full of blondes, men will have to wear their CKs or look like idiots! Here`s a photo I like to motivate the guys ::s::s::s::s:
Is it a reasonable thing, I ask you, for a grown man to run about and hit a ball? Poker's the only game fit for a grown man. Then, your hand is against every man's, and every man's is against yours. Teamwork? Who ever made a fortune by teamwork? There's only one way to make a fortune, and that's to down the fellow who's up against you.
People seldom improve when they have no other model but themselves from which to copy.
Great quote, but I dont think it applies to poker. In poker, you sit at a table with 9 other practitioners. So it's reasonable to think that those players are sufficient models of which hero can compare himself.
People seldom improve when they have no other model but themselves from which to copy.
The first time I ever took a golf lesson, the instructor, after watching me hit a few shots said "practice makes perfect right?". I agreed.
"Wrong, perfect practice makes perfect" he said.
I quit golf pretty quick, but that quote might apply here fairly well.
I also had a psychology professor who quoted someone else in saying "the surest way to judge someone's sanity is to watch them do the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result"
Comments
1. Some people still don't see it as a game of skill. They still see it as a gambling game. Sad, but true.
2. Some people claim that they are trying to approve their game by reading books and such. However, they are not applying the concepts in those books to their game properly. I know there are several times where I've reviewed some of my books and found things that I've overlooked or concepts that I didn't understand the first time I read it.
3. Some people hit a "heater" when they start to play. However, they don't realize that their fundamental playing skills suck. We have all been at tables (B&M or online) where people have called raises with garbage hands and have won big pots. They think they are playing great when other players know that these players will go broke eventually.
4. Some people know the fundamentals (position, suggested starting hands etc...) but their metagame needs work. For example, they may only be level 1 thinkers and are only concerned with their hand. However, they never think about what other players could be holding or what other players think that he is holding. These are the players who wonder why their pocket kings never hold up to an obvious flush that another player is holding based on the board and their opponents betting patterns.
5. Poor table selection. Imagine a 10NL game online with 4 or 5 players with 20 dollars in their stack. These players think "a lot of money on this table to be won" while other players think "hmm....a 10 dollar max buyin and there are several players above that....several winning players here...maybe I'll try another table..."
6. Some players play socially more than trying to win. The casino is their social club more than anything.
The list could go on but probably a good starting point.
- growth - decides to read some books and starts to tighten up their game and only play the top ten hands. Starts to learn more about the importance of position.
- mature stage - graduates from tournaments to cash games and plays a tight aggressive game with emphasis on position; constantly gets beat by chumps playing 72off. Starts to believe that any two cards can win, regardless of position;
- decline stage - starts to play any two cards. No concern for calling any raise or playing position.
Maybe these players are in the mature/decline stage
/g2
Product life cycle management - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
/g2
THe reason why people LOSE consistently is simple. They are drunk (or on drugs), THey are consistently playing drunk. Playing drunk and not playing well.
What do you think? Do you think there are thousands of people who are smart enough to have the kind of job that lets them blow hundreds of dollars each month playing poker and still pay the rent and then when it comes to poker they can't do basic math?
Drugs and alcohol
PS - there are thousands of alcoholic lawyers.
Adding to list:
7. They don't improve because they are drunk at the table...and are in the legal profession.
Yes I do.. In fact I work with people who can't add 2+2 and yet make $70,000 a year. They can teach the hell outta geography or history or english but can't balance a check book.
Talk about smug...
100s a month really isn't that big a deal to most I imagine as compared to other entertainment expenses.
I'm a winning player but I still struggle with the following areas:
1. Playing tired and tilting as a result of impatience,
2. Playing when I'm not focused for other reasons,
3. Rarely tilting and moving up limits (badddd),
So, being a player who puts a lot into his game I still struggle with these areas at times -- I play regularly with extremely emotional/tilty players who can't control any of the above, so it's not hard for me to comprehend how players some players consistently lose/never improve.
Since the golf analogy is beaten to a pulp, let me use a different card game, blackjack. If you take a really bad player and just have him switch one simple thing like never take insurance and even let him use his gut feelings or whatever dumb rituals he uses for every other situation he will still lose badly , but he should lose at a slightly lower rate in the long term.
Perhaps in poker, the other variables (ie: emotional control) dominate the impact that unintended improvement through long term exposure to the game should provide even the worst players.
Thanks for the responses.
stages are a given and the comments are based on personal observations. Although hopefully I have got past the decline stage for good now. You can see these decline players in any casino, any night of the week. Some call them regulars or grinders. Although the real difference between a grinder and a decline player is a grinder has mastered the art of position. They will beat you with any two cards because they get to act last.
reminds me of my Nortel purchase a few years back
unfortunately they keep folowing me around..even all the way to edmonton.
didn't realize you and Haddon were friends?
Who would hang around people who don't care about their health and the way the look and feel.
i wish i could improve but nothing seems to work.
i play between 10-15 tourney's a day on ub /pokers stars/action/ and few others sites and i alway,s play very well for the first hour to one and half hours then i always lose to a bad beat. my full house loses to four of a kind of my staright to a flush or full house always at the 3/4 4/5 way the tourney never ,never do i get to the money. i have been this way for over 6months i play seven days a week trying to improve i even will after i build up a very good chip say 15000/20000 chip count go away from the tourney and still i blind out at exactly 3/4/ to 5/6 the way through the tourney i tried playin very very tight then i tried very very lose playin every other hand nothing changes always 3/4 5/6 through the tourney even small ones 350 players to large ones 5000 plus types.
how do you get over that hump 3/4 to 5/6 bump out
i know its something i 'am doing but what any advicecan anyone give to try at least once to get to a final table or at least top 30 of any tourney's whats is the secret guys come an help an old man find the answer before i die at the kitchen table playin this game.
Congratulations ???
By the way, we`ll have an open table for strip poker (yes, it`s true ):)
at the <LINK REMOVED> resort in June 13th-16th. House full of blondes, men will have to wear their CKs or look like idiots! Here`s a photo I like to motivate the guys
Just what this site needs... MORE PICS!!!
PLEASE don't ban this member.... please!
The same people that don't know how to use a telephone.
___________________
Marvin
Great quote, but I dont think it applies to poker. In poker, you sit at a table with 9 other practitioners. So it's reasonable to think that those players are sufficient models of which hero can compare himself.
By which I mean it seems harder to decipher your opponents on-line as opposed to live. To me, anyway. But, what the hell do I know?
The first time I ever took a golf lesson, the instructor, after watching me hit a few shots said "practice makes perfect right?". I agreed.
"Wrong, perfect practice makes perfect" he said.
I quit golf pretty quick, but that quote might apply here fairly well.
I also had a psychology professor who quoted someone else in saying "the surest way to judge someone's sanity is to watch them do the same thing over and over, hoping for a different result"