Short stack Set Play - Chip Extraction
Quick question....
This week I was at another final table and here is the situation, I am relatively short stacked...with about 18K and the blinds are 500-1K there are 8 of us left and 6 make the money (not really relevant in this questions but just in case someone cares)
Chip leader with about 45K makes it 4K to go MP. I have 44 on the button. I make the call and the flop comes 497 rainbow flop. Chip leader bets out 4K again (so I know he has hit the flop because that is the only way he would bet out)....now I have 14K left and I want to get all my chips in the middle with a "uh I guess i have to call" (chip leader mentality).
So here is my dilemma....if I re-raise the flop to 8K it looks a little fishy, if I go 12K I might blow him out of the water. Now if I smooth call I may get a check on the turn to me where I can bet out 7K or so to reel him in or I can check the turn to make like I am drawing with overs and when the river comes he will bet out again and I can re-raise for value.
What is everyone's opinion on chip extraction in this case. Keep in mind we are at the final table and I am up against the chip leader.
This week I was at another final table and here is the situation, I am relatively short stacked...with about 18K and the blinds are 500-1K there are 8 of us left and 6 make the money (not really relevant in this questions but just in case someone cares)
Chip leader with about 45K makes it 4K to go MP. I have 44 on the button. I make the call and the flop comes 497 rainbow flop. Chip leader bets out 4K again (so I know he has hit the flop because that is the only way he would bet out)....now I have 14K left and I want to get all my chips in the middle with a "uh I guess i have to call" (chip leader mentality).
So here is my dilemma....if I re-raise the flop to 8K it looks a little fishy, if I go 12K I might blow him out of the water. Now if I smooth call I may get a check on the turn to me where I can bet out 7K or so to reel him in or I can check the turn to make like I am drawing with overs and when the river comes he will bet out again and I can re-raise for value.
What is everyone's opinion on chip extraction in this case. Keep in mind we are at the final table and I am up against the chip leader.
Comments
You have a baby set, what do you put your opponent on? You said you're sure he hit the board, but would he lead out with set that dominates you, or with top pair? I'm thinking he has an overpair though and is looking to shut you out here, but without more of a read, hard to put him on anything concrete.
His 4k bet on the flop looks like a feeler bet, seeing if you hit. I would be very happy coming over the top on this and taking it down now, up 8k. But if you think you can outplay him on the turn, pending a risky card, I can also see slowplaying and just checking the flop. Whether or not he bets or checks the turn, all my chips are going in on the turn though, so it doesn't matter when you put them there.
Push now and hold on!!!
1) you're short stack
2) heads up against chip leader
3) you KNOW he hit something and bet it
4) you have bottom set
i think according to these above facts (along with your stack size of 14K with 13.5K in the middle) i'd push it all in right now on the flop. at most i'd consider smooth call and push on the turn (but i'm crazy unlucky and i KNOW my opponent would hit his three outer if i gave him the chance, but again that's just me).
Does he double barrell?
Not part of your question, but personally I hate the pf call in that spot.
I folded pf, one caller.....same flop, same bet, other person folded.....chip leader flipped over K9.
Now the reason why I folded preflop is I only have an M of about 8 if I am not mistaken which is red zone...which is push or fold for me. Although the chip leader range was much wider than mine I did give him credit for an Ace-rag preflop so I figured if I did push I would be called and I hate racing with a small pocket pair....at this point in a tourney I am looking to push with 99s or higher or A-8 or higher.....
- In conclusion -
I made one mistake at the final I believe which cost me $$$, it was my fold in the SB when the blinds were at 1-2K and I had AQD...MP who was at around 30K raised to 6K, another 30K stack cold called 6K, and it was folded to me with 14K left. I folded here thinking I was probably behind. I should have pushed as the flop came Q high
Ended up finishing 5th....
Yellow Zone.. meaning you can still fold hands and not open push any two
I don't get the last post that you said you folded pf ?!?
PF...thats a push/fold situation, I don't think I'm ever calling there. But if you did call, smooth call flop and push turn.
...yeah i agree. probably not the best call preflop obviously, but why explain the hand like you did call and ask for advice? just makes no sense...
if you want a FULL critique than please fill in the truth of what happened. i overlooked the preflop call since i figured it was too late to critique it.
Uhhhh.. Theres nothing wrong with asking abstract questions about what you would have done or should have done.. It's not like you have to actually have the hand play out before you can ask a question.
You focused on the flop.. that's o.k.
The hand did happen. The only variable that changed was someone else called and I folded my 44 preflop. I would have a flopped a set against the chip leader while I was relatively short staked.
The whole purpose of my post was to discuss the possibilities of chip extraction to get maximum value for flopping a set against a chip leader who was very loose but only bet when he hit the flop. In this case I knew his range was much wider than mine so at best he may have an overpair (in other words my set was way ahead)
I gave enough information about the hand to construct a possible scenarios. I like these discussions because in a tournament especially where the whole idea is chip extraction it is important to discuss strategies to maximize this.
You'd be surprised how many hand discussions and variables I run through with other people. I had spoken to about 15 other people before I decided to post it here to give forum members the benefit of knowledge.
I suspect a lot of the newer players would like this kind of advice when they start making final tables in tournies and as older members in the forum I think tribal knowledge is important on improving your game along with experience.
Hmmmmm...if someone else called before you in that situation, calling isn't all that bad...any thoughts?
Sorry I am saying if I had called instead of the other player...44 doesnt play well in a multiway pot with a cold call to a raise....
Ok now I'll go read the rest of the thread and see how wrong I am.
Since your read is that he hit the flop and you can only raise $10K more, you should go all-in on the flop. Since he is getting 2.75-to-1 pot odds to call, it will be easy for him as chip leader to make the call. If you wait until the turn to go all-in, it will be easier for him to fold, e.g., if it is an overcard to his pair, or if your read was wrong and he hasn't hit with only one card to come. Even if he folded to your flop raise, you should be happy that there is no more possibility of a suck-out and you have gained a lot of prize equity with 27,500 chips.
Edit -- Sorry for the language, I meant dry anal raped
2nd bubble is the new bubble for blind stealing.
You may have a profitable re-steal situation coming up. You stack size is near perfect for an all in re-steal from a frisky chip leader.
The reason why I said I had a read on him is because I was with him throughout the whole tournament and he bet the flop everytime he hit and checked when he missed. He would also check if he was super huge too. He also check called the flop with overcards to see if he could spike a card on the turn.
That was why when the flop hit and he bet out right away I knew he caught something...now what did he have... I could not put him on right away definitely but it wasn't strong.
1. A set would check that board (especially if you are chip leader against a short stack you want them to stab at the pot)
2. Two pair would check - same reasons above
3. Overpair would check (if they were smart enough to play the turn properly)
I caught him numerous times doing this by floating the flop and pounding the turn. I actually played this live tourney a little bit more like an internet one doing steals and re-steals. I was actually surprised on how many times it worked...