What do you do?

pokrgod

Last Thursday night at CN 1/2 NL:

I'm on the button with $95. Player in CO is LAG (borderline maniac)stack size $255. Player to his right is solid player(so i thought)stack size $180.

Hole cards: :5c :6c

Pre flop: folds to solid player, limps.
CO: limps
Hero: senses some weekness, makes button raise to $8.
SB: folds
BB: folds
Solid player: calls
CO: calls

Flop: :7c :4c :8d

Solid player: bets $25
CO: calls $25
pot: $77

What do you do here? I have the nuts, sure this is an easy answer.

STR82ACE

Push. You only have $95 into a $77 pot, with the nut straight and a flush draw, and potential str flush draw. You have the best hand with good outs to improve. If the solid player is playing AXs clubs, so be it.

BBC Z

You have the best hand with good outs to improve.

AJ, do you have some kind of automated post generator or something? The last thing Hero needs to worry about in this hand is if he has a redraw. IN fact, hero's looking to dodge the clubs.

To answer OP:

Because you preflop raised, you can push the flop. You can also just call the flop and push the turn. I think your stack goes into the middle anyway along with both callers.

pokrgod

So far, so good. I push AI for $87. Solid player re-raises AI, CO calls.

We all open up.

Hero: :5c :6c
Solid player: :ac :qc
CO: :ad :4d

No raise by either one preflop?

I like my hand very much at this point.

BBC Z

if 'solid player' is open limping AQs, he ain't so solid.

I like my hand very much at this point.

This isn't BBV, so your post is complete. I know where this is going.

pokrgod

That's why i said (or so i thought). GRR i did put it in the wrong section. Sorry

pokrgod

The post had 2 reasons. It was an interesting hand but also wanted to see if you push or flat call flop bet. Sometimes I have an issue with whether or not to slow-play.

DrTyore

Slow playing causes cancer.

Especially at casinos.... also, FWIW, if you're "sensing weakness" and decide to raise PF, I'm only assuming that you wanted to take the limpers $ / blinds? $8 isn't NEARLY enough. Unless you WANTED to get multi-way with 56cc, in which case I would have limped.

Mark

pokrgod

agreed, i definitely didn't raise enough.

pokrgod

First off, sorry for posting this here. should have posted the HH in BBV and asked question in different section about when to slow-play.

Turn: :kc giving "solid player" nut flush.

River: :8c Making my straight flush!

Even though I took this pot down and it worked this time, Do you slow-play here? I knew someone would be drawing to the nut flush. Does anyone just call the flop bet to save money on the possible outdraw? Would that have been a better play? It looks great because I caught the straight flush, but more often than not, i lose here after the turn.

Graham

I agree with the push on the flop... Edit... you responded before I did... Nice hand! Well played

I wouldn't slow play there, as the 2 players in front are calling big bets... shove, hope one calls on a draw, and you win

pokrgod

thanks Graham. Just needed some feedback. It's a gap in my game I'm trying to fix. Just because what i did won the pot, didn't necessarily make it the right play.

DrTyore

If you "knew" someone was drawing to the nut flush and had to question whether you should bet... umm... yea.. that's a hole.

Mark

STR82ACE

What gap? Pushing with the best hand, or not raising enough preflop to drive out the limpers?

STR82ACE

BBC Z wrote: »

AJ, do you have some kind of automated post generator or something? The last thing Hero needs to worry about in this hand is if he has a redraw. IN fact, hero's looking to dodge the clubs. .

That was my point...he didn't WANT his oppenents to draw, and the only way would be to push this flop...unfortunatly, his position and chip stack make it impossible to do with any kind of power...last to act, and his push was for only another $20 or so...he was getting called with any kind of decent flush draw

BBC Z wrote: »

You can also just call the flop and push the turn. I think your stack goes into the middle anyway along with both callers.

Call the flop and push the turn? Why just call the flop and give a free card here? Why not just push and hope for bricks?

pokrgod

Yeah, the raise was bad. I knew that right away. Knowing that someone was drawing was the reason i pushed to begin with. The hole is, that i have a hard time knowing when to slow-play and when not to.

STR82ACE

pokrgod wrote: »

The hole is, that i have a hard time knowing when to slow-play and when not to.

That's a simple one to resolve...NEVER SLOWPLAY!

DrTyore

PokrGod

If I may suggest, the Phil Gordon "little green / blue book" is quite a resource... it allows some insight into why he does what he does, including slowplaying.

Personally, I don't slowplay much.. if you're always betting, they're never going to know when you're value betting vs. continuation betting. Mixing it up of course is important too, but IMO people slowplay too much.

Mark

pokrgod

Thanks AJ and Mark, i appreciate it. I'll try cutting it out of my game and see how it works. Always looking for ways to improve.

Jay

DrTyore

One of my favorite "slowplays" here's an example



SB: Hero say $200
BB: Another player, say $200
Short stack, say $50

The ideal situation here is to be aware of another's stack size. Let's say I was BB, and preflop the Dealer popped it to $10, both blinds called. I hit huge on the flop... like a set and I'm in the SB, the pot's at $30, and we have $190 / $190 / $40 respectively.

Here I love to "slowplay" by "betting poorly".... I like pot-sized bets more often than not, but here I would only put maybe $15-$20 in. Hoping the BB will call the pittance of a bet, and dealer pushes all-in. I now re-pop myself all in, and watch BB cry about his dead money.

Slowplaying only works when you have HYPER aggressive people behind you... and it's almost NEVER a good idea in limit.. you're just missing bets.

Mark

STR82ACE

Mark's right when he says too many players slow play too often. I've seen guys slow play bottom two pair on a straight/flush board. More often than not, slowplaying will backfire on you if you use it too often.

I like Mark's example of a 'poor bet'...it screams out for someone to come over the top of him, and bang, you're trap is set and sprung in one motion.

Mark, don't even THINK about using that bullshit at RCV!!

JimmyHo

you might find this post to be useful. Kind along the same line as your question. I often find I push on the flop ahead, only to get burned on the turn or river. A pot size bet sometimes might be a good strategy with a push on the turn. Have a look:

http://www.pokerforum.ca/showthread.php?t=14984

Although you don't have much behind to bet pot on the flop and still make a decent raise on the turn. But it might help some what.

JimmyHo

pokrgod wrote: »

Yeah, the raise was bad. I knew that right away. Knowing that someone was drawing was the reason i pushed to begin with. The hole is, that i have a hard time knowing when to slow-play and when not to.

Have a read of Largay's chapter on slow playing. Its typically better to raise and hope someone got a piece of the flop so they will call you on a draw. If they missed the flop, if you check, they will likely not improve on the turn/river so you make no extra money anyways. If you give them a free card, they may also improve and you might now be behind.

BBC Z

Call the flop and push the turn? Why just call the flop and give a free card here? Why not just push and hope for bricks?

Because the PFR-Flop push on draw heavy board makes me put him on an overpair. If villians have brains, they'll smell that too and likely get out of the way. On the turn, they're all dancing anyway and you guarentee yourself their stacks.

pokrgod

BBC Z wrote: »

Because the PFR-Flop push on draw heavy board makes me put him on an overpair. If villians have brains, they'll smell that too and likely get out of the way. On the turn, they're all dancing anyway and you guarentee yourself their stacks.

Very good point.

BlondeFish

pokrgod wrote: »

CN 1/2 NL:
I'm on the button with $95. Player in CO is LAG (borderline maniac)stack size $255.

Assuming this is $200 maximum 1/2 at Casino Niagara, with the maniac to my right, I would have kept topping up to $200, instead of being short-stacked at $95 with low implied odds.

Hole cards: :5c :6c
Pre flop: folds to solid player, limps.
CO: limps
Hero: senses some weekness, makes button raise to $8.
:
agreed, i definitely didn't raise enough.

IMHO, calling with 6-5 soooted is much better than raising. With less than $100, you are not getting enough implied odds to raise with a 6-high garbage hand and committing more than 8% of your chips. With a couple of limpers and suited connectors on the button, you want the blinds to call in order to get the big implied odds IF you hit your straight or flush.

Solid player: bets $25
CO: calls $25
pot: $77
What do you do here? I have the nuts, sure this is an easy answer.

You may have the nuts for the moment, but with multiple players showing strength, you as a short stack want to raise all-in to try to protect your vulnerable hand. Since you can only raise to $62 more, a player with a high flush draw (or set) would have the proper pot odds to call your all-in even if he thinks you have the nut straight. In this case, a flush draw will actually have four less club outs, but chasing a flush (or full house) will still be profitable if another player calls. Flat-calling and slow-playing would be horrible given the stacks.

pokrgod wrote: »

So far, so good. I push AI for $87. Solid player re-raises AI, CO calls.

The so-called solid player on the CO should have flat-called, hoping that the maniac will call. NON-solid player instead re-raises all-in, but lucky for him, donkey maniac donates $147 more to both of you, calling on just bottom pair. ???

After reading about this hand, I now have this irresistible urge to carpool to to Niagara Falls on Wednesday.

ReefAquarium

BlondeFish wrote: »

Assuming this is $200 maximum 1/2 at Casino Niagara, with the maniac to my right, I would have kept topping up to $200, instead of being short-stacked at $95 with low implied odds.

Most games are the tiny 100 max buying. Except for weekends it's pretty much all 1/2 100 max. I always start a list for 1/2 200 max and 2/5 300 max as soon as I arrive but it rarely starts up.

IMHO, calling with 6-5 soooted is much better than raising. With less than $100, you are not getting enough implied odds to raise with a 6-high garbage hand and committing more than 8% of your chips. With a couple of limpers and suited connectors on the button, you want the blinds to call in order to get the big implied odds IF you hit your straight or flush.
You may have the nuts for the moment, but with multiple players showing strength, you as a short stack want to raise all-in to try to protect your vulnerable hand. Since you can only raise to $62 more, a player with a high flush draw (or set) would have the proper pot odds to call your all-in even if he thinks you have the nut straight. In this case, a flush draw will actually have four less club outs, but chasing a flush (or full house) will still be profitable if another player calls. Flat-calling and slow-playing would be horrible given the stacks. The so-called solid player on the CO should have flat-called, hoping that the maniac will call. NON-solid player instead re-raises all-in, but lucky for him, donkey maniac donates $147 more to both of you, calling on just bottom pair. ???

Fabulous analysis.

I think what the OP meant by solid player is that he's better than most CN players. ie he knows about not playing total trash preflop but nothing more.

After reading about this hand, I now have this irresistible urge to carpool to to Niagara Falls on Wednesday.

Me too, I think I'll leave around 9 am. Phone me if you get this before then.

BlondeFish

Me too, I think I'll leave around 9 am. Phone me if you get this before then.

Unfortunately, I haven't gotten enough sleep, so I probably won't make it to Fallsview until much later than that. Good luck!

ReefAquarium

BlondeFish wrote: »

Unfortunately, I haven't gotten enough sleep, so I probably won't make it to Fallsview until much later than that. Good luck!

Okay, Phone me when you want to go.

Davis08

i would love to be in this situation lol

pokrgod

I totally agree that i played wrong preflop. The max was $100 unfortunately . And you're right, "solid player" is better than most at CN. I do love playing there. I think that's where my gaps are coming from though. Nobody there really plays "solid" poker. 3x and 4x BB raises are small there and usually get 5 callers min LOL. I find myself getting bored like on that night and playing a wider range of hands. NEED TO STOP THAT but as long as you can outplay them on the flop or later, it's very profitable. Also, I work til 4am and think i'm going tonight after work too. If you're still there, I'll be there.