After being warned, is this still questionable ethically?
I'm curious to find out what everyone thinks about this...
Cash game, I'm on the left of this player who had a good size stack in front of him, and was quite vocal about his play. Came to know he was a very loose player who liked to think he was better than he was. Anyway, almost from the very first hand he would either fold or take the pot by pushing his cards towards the center, given me a full view of his hole cards. Didn't matter if he was going to muck or not, I got a good view alot of the time. The very first time this happened, the dealer warned him about showing his hand and after asking me if I saw the cards, turned them over for all to see. This player would start a mini rant on how it wasn't his fault that I saw his cards, but seriously, he was absolutely careless as far as protecting his hand.
One hand in particular, can't remember position, I'm in the pot preflop with him and another guy. Flop comes down rags and as he checks it, he again leans his hand into the middle of the table giving me a brief look. I checked behind him saying 'you have to stop showing me your hand and start protecting', and he insta mucks. I didn't even get a good look at it, just know it was suited black mid range cards. Dealer asked me what the cards WERE, and I said I didn't get a good look, but that I saw them as mid range black. Again, the player goes on a rant calling it an angle shot, forcing him to muck. The hand eventually continued, getting one bettor, and I folded.
It was not my intention to angle shoot, and I'm not sure if it even could be considered as such. The guy was positively careless all night.
After being warned earlier by the dealer, should it be my responsibility to inform the dealer every time I caught a glimpse of his cards or not? After my comment on the hand I described, could it have been construed as an angle shot?
Cash game, I'm on the left of this player who had a good size stack in front of him, and was quite vocal about his play. Came to know he was a very loose player who liked to think he was better than he was. Anyway, almost from the very first hand he would either fold or take the pot by pushing his cards towards the center, given me a full view of his hole cards. Didn't matter if he was going to muck or not, I got a good view alot of the time. The very first time this happened, the dealer warned him about showing his hand and after asking me if I saw the cards, turned them over for all to see. This player would start a mini rant on how it wasn't his fault that I saw his cards, but seriously, he was absolutely careless as far as protecting his hand.
One hand in particular, can't remember position, I'm in the pot preflop with him and another guy. Flop comes down rags and as he checks it, he again leans his hand into the middle of the table giving me a brief look. I checked behind him saying 'you have to stop showing me your hand and start protecting', and he insta mucks. I didn't even get a good look at it, just know it was suited black mid range cards. Dealer asked me what the cards WERE, and I said I didn't get a good look, but that I saw them as mid range black. Again, the player goes on a rant calling it an angle shot, forcing him to muck. The hand eventually continued, getting one bettor, and I folded.
It was not my intention to angle shoot, and I'm not sure if it even could be considered as such. The guy was positively careless all night.
After being warned earlier by the dealer, should it be my responsibility to inform the dealer every time I caught a glimpse of his cards or not? After my comment on the hand I described, could it have been construed as an angle shot?
Comments
(I was there)
If I remember correctly his first rant was not that it wasn't his fault, but that you did NOT see his cards and you were full of shit.
C'mon AJ, the poker gods have given you another edge and you don't know what the right thing to do is?
If I was you I would have just kept quite after he BLEW up at you the first time, and silently kept a record of his hands for future reference.
The hand he pushed me out of with his pair of Jacks, he clearly exposed his hand to you (I still do not know if he intended to) and I was thankful for the free info you were able to give me.
In a friendly game I would keep telling him (while passing him another beer) and not look at his cards, but in this game (and most other real games) I would look. Mainly because he was being a big dick, calling you a liar liar pants of fire. If he was cool about it I would maybe give 3 warnings and then just take my free info.
The best was when he folded his Flush draw after a $63 bet into a $400+ pot on the turn and he rivered the winning flush. HEE HAW, HEE HAW!
Fun night!
I've seen threads like this often on 2+2 and essentially people fall into 1 of 3 camps. 1) Look everytime the information is presented and don't say nothin to no-one..
2) Give the player warnings (number of warnings vary) and then take the free info
3) Do your utmost best not to look, warning the player each time you see his cards.
Do I feel one of these is any better than the other, I honestly don't know. There's really no clear right or wrong answer for this one sir!
Tell him again if it doesn't...
after that fuck him
As for the dealer.. well, what are you supposed to do?
Mark
exactly; players see cards all the time, on the deal, etc., and do nothing about it. You warned him and theres not much you can do.
if he wasn't such an extreme losing player, i'm quite certain he would be told to leave the game for all the shit he causes. on the contrary, the game is built around this player. nuff said.
personally, i think it is unethical to have clear knowledge (i.e. seeing someone's cards) not known by the whole table and using it to influence your decision IF you don't disclose that you know it. so just disclose it and don't worry about it. it is not YOUR problem. it is HIS.
did you know what his hand was when you stacked him?
once you have said "i have seen your cards" i'd say you are in the clear. i would say it every time he does it. i would never say what cards i saw, especially if by refusing to do that would put him on tilt. if you are still in the hand with others and him, i guess it is up to them if they want to continue in the hand as i would expect you have a bit of an advantage over the rest of the table. if he is out of the hand, his cards should be exposed.
Mike
I stacked him a couple of times, and neither time, did I see his hand whatsoever. After being told a couple of times, when he saw me in the pot, he would cover his cards better...not great, but better. But the first time I tripled up on him and the other guy who came late, I knew they were both drawing to flushes...I called with my baby set and managed to hit the 'dory' on the river. The last time I stacked him and he stomped out I had the nuts and he overbet the pot into me with his allin and I just smiled to myself and quietly said a thank you to the poker gods.
The dealer did this ONLY the first time when it was VERY obvious I had seen the hand, and ONLY did it after the hand was completed. I had information on this opponent that other's at the table did not have, and I had agreed to it.
Does a fisherman tell another the best spots to troll?
but it could also have been after the hand was concluded. i was too busy laughing at the idiot's explosion to remember that well.
he kept saying 'unbelievable!' (i had just watched the princess bride and kept thinking of the guy saying 'inconceivable!' all the time and couldn't stop laughing)
No I'm positive the hand was over. Not that it mattered, but since I did see, QUITE CLEARLY, I thought it only fair for the rest of the table to see the crap he was playing all day.
"unbelievable"...and and callin me a liar all day certainly didn't earn him my respect when I called his allins. I doubt he learned anything though from the day...I mean...he's sooooooooo good at the game
just read the above and know it wasnt the j,j hand, since garbage all day was mentioned.
I was just happy to know I made the correct fold.