Does it matter? How? - Settle this arguement

Alright... my brother in law and I have been having an arguement. Since there's a bunch of poker-savvy people in here, I'd like to hear your input. Here it is:

Table of 8 with one player not there yet. Does it matter if you deal him in or not? I say no, brother in law says it affects your hand ranking if he's dealt in. Here's the "logic":

Brother-in-law: His arguement is that it makes a difference because there are more cards in play even though they aren't being played... meaning if he's got an Ace in his hand, the more cards dealt out, the more likely that there will be another Ace out there (rather than in the deck.)

Buddha: While I can't dispute that logic, I still say you can't consider that because when you're counting your outs, you don't consider how many hands are dealt. For instance, if I flop a flush draw, I count 9 outs - whether I'm heads up or at a full table. My second arguement is that since the hand isn't even in play, that's one hand less you have to beat.

So... yes, it is possible that this missing player could be dealt AA for all we know... but since we don't know what his cards are, it doesn't matter. Makes sense? Disagree? I'd love to hear from you.

Comments

  • For counting outs, you count unseen cards, so his logic that it changes the calculation is flawed. However, he is correct that it is standard practice to deal in a missing player. This is just how most people do it (and varies according to house rules), but doesn't affect the math.
  • IMO, I think missing players should be dealt anyways, this way you can easily keep track of missed blinds, or missed ante's. The cards should never be exposed, when it's the missing players turn to act, the hand is mucked.

    The 2nd reason why cards should be dealti s, in case he happens to show up before it's his/her turn to act. They have every right to be involved at any givin time, unless the action is on them, and they are not seated at the table yet.

    You will see this occur many times at the WSOP, players are late but run to the table to see their cards. ie. Gus Hansen


    Hope this helps.
  • I guess I should clarify...

    The arguement isn't whether or not he should be dealt in. We agree the missing player should be dealt in. The arguement is whether or not this would affect your starting hand requirement.
  • Rockwood wrote: »
    The 2nd reason why cards should be dealti s, in case he happens to show up before it's his/her turn to act. They have every right to be involved at any givin time, unless the action is on them, and they are not seated at the table yet.

    Depends on house rules, some house rules states that if you are not seated by the time the first card is dealt to you, your hand is automatically dead even if you get back in time when its your turn to act.

    Back on the real topic. Realistically, one missing player should not really affect your starting hand requirement. If there is 2-3 missing all at the same time, then its a different story.
  • I'd say unless you are incredibly sure the player is going to show up during a hand, their involvement is a moot point.

    As you know some hands play better heads up, some players play better with many players. Regardless if there are cards on the table for that player you can always assume they are a mucked hand. So there's always the maximum number of live body players at your table from which to make your starting requirement decision.

    The other factor is position which again isn't affected if the missing player is UTG or on the button.

    You are also correct on the outs front. When you have a flush draw, how do you know what the missing player has/had? Count your 9 outs regardless of how many players are in the hand (and still have cards) and how many hands have been folded and how many cards are still in the deck.
  • Tournament play - Cards dealt to missing players
    Cash play - No cards are dealt to missing players

    WSOP - If you are not seated in your seat when the first card is dealt, your cards are automatically folded even if you get to your seat before it is your turn to act. Dealer usually mucks your hand right after he is done dealing all the cards.
  • You say that, "he's not there yet." If he has not arrived at the game, why would you deal him in? Unless someone else has bought in for him, of course. As others have stated, it doesn't change the math.
  • Buddha wrote: »

    Brother-in-law: His arguement is that it makes a difference because there are more cards in play even though they aren't being played... meaning if he's got an Ace in his hand, the more cards dealt out, the more likely that there will be another Ace out there (rather than in the deck.)

    Don't argue!
    Sounds like a total fish game...
    Smile.
    nod.
    win.

    your best move is to *lose* this argument!!!
  • if you are talking about ranking your starting hands, then you don't count him as in the hand, regardless of whether he is dealt in or not.
  • Easy answer is....it doesn't matter for hand ranking whether the two cards are sitting on the table or in the middle of the deck.
  • Easy answer is....it doesn't matter for hand ranking whether the two cards are sitting on the table or in the middle of the deck.

    LOL! All you pg. 1ers just got owned by the n00b!

    Well put and welcome to the forum!
  • SteveKerr wrote: »
    Tournament play - Cards dealt to missing players
    Cash play - No cards are dealt to missing players
    quote]

    i completely agree and here's why: in a cash game, the player sitting out doesn't have to pay the blinds, therefore they don't get cards. in a tournament, the player has to pay the blinds, therefore deal them in. simple.
  • OP said this:
    Table of 8 with one player not there yet. Does it matter if you deal him in or not? I say no

    Clarification post said this:
    The arguement isn't whether or not he should be dealt in. We agree the missing player should be dealt in.

    Hence, i have no idea what you mean.
  • The ratio of your outs to unseen cards remains the same.

    That is, on the flop, on a flush draw, you have 9 outs out of 47 unseen cards.

    Therefore 19.1 % of the remaining cards are the suit you need. If you deal in 1 or 5 - or as many as you want - players who are not at the table (dead hands), the expectaion is that 19.1% of those cards will be your suit, and 80.9% will not. The remaining deck cards will remain 19.1% and 80.9% as well.
  • Thanks Tie Twist... that's another way of looking at it as well.
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