AK OOP -- street by street -- interesting
Taking a beating, so my I move down in limits to fine tune. I'll post a couple of hands which got me thinking. I believe I played properly, but I'm sure to hear some opposing points of view -- which is what I'm looking for. I'll go street by street.
Villians in this hand are relatively unknown. UTG is 25/53 with af 19.2 over 120 hands. Other two are really unknown, but this is a table where no one is pushed off of hands.
Party Poker $100 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
CO: $54.17
BTN: $98.00
SB: $58.96
Hero (BB): $163.86
UTG: $177.82
MP: $75.00
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with :kh :ad
UTG raises to $4, MP calls $4, 1 fold, BTN calls $4, 1 fold, Hero calls $3
Do you agree with this play? Thoughts on alternatives and why, please.
Flop: ($16.50) :9c :as :10d (4 players)
What's your move here? Why?
Cheers
Magi
Villians in this hand are relatively unknown. UTG is 25/53 with af 19.2 over 120 hands. Other two are really unknown, but this is a table where no one is pushed off of hands.
Party Poker $100 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com
CO: $54.17
BTN: $98.00
SB: $58.96
Hero (BB): $163.86
UTG: $177.82
MP: $75.00
Pre Flop: Hero is BB with :kh :ad
UTG raises to $4, MP calls $4, 1 fold, BTN calls $4, 1 fold, Hero calls $3
Do you agree with this play? Thoughts on alternatives and why, please.
Flop: ($16.50) :9c :as :10d (4 players)
What's your move here? Why?
Cheers
Magi
Comments
It is a tough hand for me to play from SB but I need to learn to raise it up to 15-20 PF in circumstances like this. That may win it outright or at least narrow the field to heads up. If you get reraised from UTG, I'd lean towards a fold. If not, as the PF aggressor, I would then lead out on that flop.
Given the current state on the flop, I have no idea what to do. I'm mostly afraid of UTG with AA or one of the LP players with a crappy 2pr or set. I suppose I'd try a squeeze play with a 10-12 bet. I would prefer that over trying to CR and facing a potential re-raise. After I bet, if UTG raises, I have to give him credit. If UTG calls, I'd still be suspicious. If one of the others raises then you are in a tough spot but you don't have too much invested yet so you can get away from it if you think you are beat.
As played check the flop and go from there
A: You've a great hand, getting more money in is a good thing
B: You're out of position, pay to see just how good that PF raiser's hand is
C: It looks like a steal, and some donkey may try a re-push or something.
As for the way it went down now:
I lead out here, $16.50 in the pot, I probably fire like $12. Here's why.
A: Calling with AK pre-flop was to disguise it, well, fire now.
B: That many players, someone may have something, let's find out.
C: The pot's not too bad as is... I take it this is .50/1? $16 is good.
The problem here is that the original re-raiser has a big stack as well. My guess is that the little stacks are going to get out of the way, and you'll have to use your gut / reads on if he plays back. You've got a big enough stack to bet and still get away from it as necessary.
Mark
To SirWatts & _obv_, what are the reasons why you would check that flop? Like -ev & DrTyore, I would bet the flop. I would bet around half the pot and my reasons would include: value, manipulating the pot size, & for information. I don't understand. This is 1 of the better flops for AK: TPTK, rainbow, & no other face cards. With the other two aces out, I am NOT afraid of UTG having :ac :ah
I am prepared to risk $163.86 and rebuy against the 1-in-1,081 chance that he has AA. Yikes! I get scared sh*tless whenever a player I admire starts talking about a bad losing streak.
I wasn't implying he was likely to have AA, just that is one of the hands I would consider if UTG raises my flop bet. It is possible he could have a weaker Ace or the same hand as me, of course. I would expect a good player to fold a weak Ace in the face of a bet from BB since there are others yet to act. He is much less likely to have 2pr or a low set from UTG. If a raise comes from one of the others, I am much more likely to see a weaker Ace, 2pr or a low set than I would expect to see AA. It really comes down to reads on the players.
Yes, the odds of being behind UTG here are remote but just because it almost never happens doesn't mean it never happens. It would be much more likely to see a raise from one of the others even though the chances of one of them being ahead are also slim. If the others are playing pocket pairs, what are the odds one of them has a set - 1 in 4?
Perhaps I am too tight but I'm not going to always commit my whole stack on TPTK in a multi-way, raised pot OOP unless I have some very good reads on the players. Re-raising PF definitely helps as does leading out on the flop.
Contrary to SW, I'm not so sure about committing 170 BBs here pre-flop. If you re-raise and UTG pushes and gets a caller, would you still feel good about AKo? Against just UTG, I suppose there is enough dead money in the pot to justify the call but for sure you are behind, most often you are 45% but once in a while 30% or much worse.
if UTG calls with those stats and this is the flop I weak c-bet the flop expecting a reraise all in and snap call
As it went down, I would check the flop thinking to check/call or check/fold depending on the bet.
In a 4 way pot your in alot of trouble and could get commited deep with just TPTK
Pot Control - OOP with tptk facing 3 others you dont want to get stacked with the AF that high your going to get threebet
What does a threebet tell you? Are you prepared to push?
Yes, but your oop facing 3 others including a superlag.
If you get too aggressive - you get stacked here by AA, TT, 99, AT- A9, 9T as you suspect it might be a weaker ace that commits you to this hand but it could very well be one of the hands that have you drawing very slim
dont worry about the pot, you need to protect your stack
If I were going to raise I think I make it a bit larger than the pot raise -- so I'm on-side with Watts to make it 24 PF. The problem with this size raise is the size of our stacks. How deep do you go, before you really don't want to commit your stack with AK pre-flop or TPTK post-flop. For me, as soon as I get into 100-150BB, then I really want to manage the pot sizes so I don't commit my stack on an overpair or TPTK. How deep do you go before you make that commitment?
By raising here, I'm getting into the territory of having to commit my stack. If there's two callers, the pot is around 75 and a reasonable bet on the flop is aroun 60. Now I've got half my stack in the pot and I'm not likely going to fold on a good flop for me. This is one of the reasons I posted -- am I thinking this because I'm taking a beating and I'm getting shy about getting the chips in? However, I really don't like commitment (man thing?) and I call.
The other reason I call is relative position. The last to act has best position. However, with UTG raising, I now have the best position, as he's likely going to fire on the flop and I get to see how others react to his bet and it doesn't cost me anything. I don't have to bet the flop to get the information. Why risk my chips to find out what others have?
Finally, there's value and isolation. The problem with AKo is that it's never really ahead by a huge margin. So, not much to the value proposition -- or is that faulty thinking. Same goes for isolation -- you have around 25-30% equity four ways, 28-35% three ways and around 50% two way --- most often. Personally, if I feel I can take down the pot PF, I'm raising more than I'm calling PF. However, when I feel I have a low %age of winning the pot right there, I'm more inclined to call.
On the flop, I'm not overly worried about UTG having AA, and in fact I'd be more than happy to get my chips in against him. His range, his laggyness, make him a good target. Yes he can have AT, but i'll find out after I CR him. The other players are the ones I'm more concerned about.
FLOP ACTIONS
Hero checks, UTG bets $13, MP folds, BTN raises to $30, Hero folds, UTG calls $17
Here's where I wonder as well. I don't like betting when I know UTF will bet for me. Yes, I don't know where I am against him, but I'm more happy to find out about the other two. Also, I haven't given him any information on my hand strength, so betting out on the flop doesn't tell him much. But if I CR him that's a very strong play and if he pushes I can then start to think about him having a set, or two pair without commiting a ton of chips.
As it stood, the BTN raise screamed set to me. He's facing UTG PF raise, and he has me to worry about behind him. He's essentially commiting himself to the pot. He isn't making the raise too large, so UTG cannot get away from TP. There are NO multi-way draws. All, those things put together told me SET. So, I fold.
So, what are your thoughts on commitment? How deep are you before you are happy to commit to a pot with an overpair or TPTK?
BLONDFISH: "player I admire starts talking about a losing streak"
Well, not really a losing streak -- more of a beating. It would most definately be one if I didn't take action though. One thing I've found out is that I encounter a bad run every month (around 15,000 hands). Only the length and severity vary. Nothing can be done to avoid the bad run, other than stop playing. So, every player, Negraneu -- watch last season's HSP
It also is going to look like a squeeze and you are possibly going to get pushed on by some worse hands who think you are sqeezing. UTG could very well shove AQ if he thinks you are squeezing. If someone has a pair your flip with them is subsidized by all the dead money in the pot.
I'm not sure how his reaction to a CR tells you what you need to know. How much would that cost you - close to 25% of your stack?
I'm still stuck on re-raise PF and hope to get heads up with a good read on your opponent.
I can understand you have a hard decision if you bet out and get raised back. I still think that may be an easier and less costly decision that some of the alternatives that could come up here. I agree that UTG betting and getting raised before it comes to you is an easy fold - although these guys could be complete donkeys.
I'd like to understand some variations on your preferred scenario:
- What if you check, UTG checks and one of the others bets? I doubt UTG fires a continuation bet without at least a strong Ace here but he could check with a strong hand, as you have done. Do you just fold? Do you call to see how strong UTG and maybe pick up the aggression on the turn if you are heads up?
- What if UTG bets and gets smooth called by one of the others? How good do you feel about AKo now?
With no raise on the flop i call. I would probably just go into check call mode and if the turn checks around lead out on a non scary river. Unless you are playing some really bad opponents i think that check raising the flop pretty much turns your hand into a bluff... you are pretty much folding out all hands that you beat and never getting a better hand to fold. I cant really see AK winning many big pots on this flop but it can surely lose a lot of big pots so by check calling you lose the least when you are beat and you also give the worse hands a chance to bluff at it. If the turn checks around there is value in betting the river provided the board isn't really scary. Reraising preflop would make things a lot easier.
1. In both cases I'd call and see what happens on the turn, though the 2nd scenario I'm not feeling too good about trying to play the hand out of position 3-ways, but we still have the best hand too much to fold. I'm probably playing most turns passively as well. I'm starting to like a flop lead more and more, but playing multiway pots deep with marginal hands is always tough.
So, magithighs, did you get to see what they were playing?
Party Poker $100 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter
mrgrolsch: $54.17
marcsy: $98.00
Waynemarto: $58.96
Hero (): $163.86
Kazim_Atatur: $177.82
pynota: $75.00
Pre Flop: Hero is with :kh :ad
Kazim_Atatur raises to $4, pynota calls $4, 1 fold, marcsy calls $4, 1 fold, Hero calls $3
Flop: ($16.50) :9c :as :10d (4 players)
Hero checks, Kazim_Atatur bets $13, pynota folds, marcsy raises to $30, Hero folds, Kazim_Atatur calls $17
Turn: ($76.50) :jc (2 players)
Kazim_Atatur checks, marcsy bets $64 all in, Kazim_Atatur calls $64
River: ($204.50) :kc (2 players - 1 is all in)
Final Pot: $204.50
Kazim_Atatur shows Qc Ac (a flush, Ace high)
marcsy doesnt show [ Tc, Ts ]three of a kind, Tens.
Kazim_Atatur wins $201.50
(Rake: $3.00)