What is the ruling?
Here is a situation that occurred in the tournament that I played on the week-end and was wondering what you thought the ruling should be?
Blinds 500-1000 with a 200 ante. Player A UTG raised to 3500. SB calls and the BB calls.
Flop comes A-2-A. SB checks, BB bets 15000. Player A asks how much the BB has back.
The BB says he had 22000 back. Player A then says "Raise" and puts in 15000 for the call and then another 15000 for the raise.
The SB folds.
Then BB says "OK I call, I have an Ace" and then shows A-7.
Player A then asks for a ruling as the BB is not all-in, still has 7000 chips left and has exposed his hand.
What do you think the ruling should be?
Blinds 500-1000 with a 200 ante. Player A UTG raised to 3500. SB calls and the BB calls.
Flop comes A-2-A. SB checks, BB bets 15000. Player A asks how much the BB has back.
The BB says he had 22000 back. Player A then says "Raise" and puts in 15000 for the call and then another 15000 for the raise.
The SB folds.
Then BB says "OK I call, I have an Ace" and then shows A-7.
Player A then asks for a ruling as the BB is not all-in, still has 7000 chips left and has exposed his hand.
What do you think the ruling should be?
Comments
Player A is free to be the turn/river if he wishes.
Should this line
Player then asks for a ruling as Player A is not all-in, still has 7000 chips left and has exposed his hand.
Read
Player A then asks for a ruling as BB is not all-in, still has 7000 chips left and has exposed his hand.
But, unless they are using the strictest of terminology (any exposed cards are automatically folded - which, granted, a lot of places do) then I would agree with Hobbes - hand plays with the cards exposed.
If I thought at all the player exposed their cards to get a read on their opponent, or to get their opponent to fold, then I personally would rule differently (If the posted rule said that a cards deliberately shown are mucked). The difference here being that by all accounts the player made the simple mistake of assuming his opponent was all in when they actually were not.
Once again though - the exposed cards policy should be stated in the tournament rules for the card room. The tournament director should then follow the policy to the letter.
Yes...corrected
I did the exact same thing. Player had chips behind his arm, I thought he had pushed.
He hit his straight draw, I lost the hand legitimetly.
Hand was played out but action was dead AND I got a ten hand penatly.
I protested as he didn't anounce all in his actions certainly implied it and he had his remaining chips hidden.
I was lucky not to get the extra ten hands for swearing.
First time I ever called someone a "mudderfudgin hoe bag" at least it got the TD to laugh.
I really don't think that he only had 7K back. I think it was more in the 40-50k range. He had 3 stacks of whites and some browns. That is why I only put out the $15k raise on his $15k bet. Before I knew he held A7 to my A8, I didn't want to commit all of my chips on my semi crappy kicker.
I know this is kind of an aside to the discussion.... just thought I would put my 2 cents in.
Oh, and my other 2 cents (yes, 4 cents in total) is that the hand be declared dead. Maybe I don't play enough casino poker, but that is the rule I am most familiar with. First and foremost, it was principal and the fact that a “rule is a rule”. I have been burned by being flexible to the rules in the past, and decided that I am not willing to waver on house rules. If that is the rule of the house, then I will follow it. Secondly, there are too many chances at a chop (2 and 9 through A) or a 7 for a win. There is a 60% chance for a chop or loss.
To clarify the end to this hand, I agreed to the house rules as stated by the director (although I find the rule that an exposed hand NEVER be declared dead a bit fishy….) and said “fine, I’ve got you beat anyway, so I’m all in”. He made the call and 2 blanks hit giving me the pot. Sure made my decision much easier.
Derek
A rule infraction like exposing cards or acting out of turn can always be assumed to be accidental the first time.
A rule infraction like swearing is NEVER an accident the first time; players must show control of their own person. Swearing will always be penalized immediately if I am the TD.
Warning for playing the game incorrectly and actually screwing up.
Penalty for swearing which is IMO much less related.
TDA Rule #7 states that a penalty MAY be invoked if a player exposes any card with action pending. Penalties available to the TD include verbal warnings and "missed hand" penalties.
If I was the TD, I would just issue a verbal warning since it is clear that the BB had made an honest mistake. It is to his disadvantage that he has revealed his cards, and player A can choose to keep betting on the turn or river.
Seneca's house rules for cash games are unfortunately very different. Exposing a card with action pending makes it a dead hand, even if it's heads up. This happened at the big game last night, when the table maniac went all-in heads-up on a bluff and a fellow Canadian showed his two cards ala Daniel Negreanu & other professionals on TV before making a decision. The maniac knew he had lost the ~$500 pot and quickly left in frustration after having donked off a couple of thousand dollars in the session. The dealer & players informed the Torontonian that his exposed hand would have been technically ruled dead had the maniac chosen to call a floor person over for a ruling.
That maniac was involved in a lot of all-in pots, including myself. In one-hand, I had 99 but the board came A-K-7-A-K board. When the K came on the river to counterfeit my two pair, I digustingly said, "You've got to be to kidding me! Nine-high." The maniac looked at my pair of nines without paying attention to my blunder of stating that I only have 9-high, then mucked his hand. It was only later that he realized that he had 9-high beat.
Lessons Learned From Many Poker Blunders Witnessed:
1) Always understand what the situation is before you act. Don't be afraid to ask the dealer. During a satellite in another venue, I didn't realize that another player had already gone all-in before I made an all-in bluff against the big blind with 5-3! I was a huge underdog against the all-in's A-Q, but I sucked out a straight on the river. :-[ Whenever I see players from that game, they refer to me as "the donkey who calls an all-in with 5-3."
2) Do not expose any of your cards until you understand the situation or rule. When faced with a final bet, many players neglect to push chips forward or say "Call" or "Fold" and just flip their cards face up, risking a ruling that is opposite to what they had intended. At least one cardroom I know has the extreme rule of making your hand dead if you show a card to a player who has folded or to a railbird.
3) Find out what the house rules are, which could be very different from the rule you are used to. For example, when a player made an out-of-turn bet at Seneca, I verified that the bet stays before I made my decison.
4) Just like you should never muck your hand until you are 100% sure you lost, don't state how bad your hand is if you table your hand to the dealer. If your opponent chooses to muck his hand instead of showing, then you win the pot.
Personally, I hate this rule for a cash game, but if a room wants to make it a rule, so be it... that said, if its a rule, then the dealer needs to enforce it, without prejudice... Sounds like some maniac got taken advantage of while the dealer sat like a log, along with all the other players who knew better. Sounds like locals can envoke this rule when the exposed hand is better than theirs, and keep their mouth shut when it isn't... NICE ANGLE SHOOTING THERE!!!
ALL rules should be enforced by the dealer.
</rant>
I could give you a million examples of similar situations, almost all of which would be impossible to be 100% sure if they were "accidents" or "deliberate". Therefore, a warning could be issued for a first offense. That would totally be in line with "...the best interest of the game..." that is so often referred to.
In a tournament (or even a cash game!), keeping all of the players happy and content with the environment they are playing in is very important. Every major tournament that I am familiar with has a no swearing policy. Personally, I agree 100% with this rule. And, like I said before, no one swears "by accident". Each and every player must be fully in control of their actions, both verbal and physical. I penalize for swearing on the first offense the same as I penalize for physical abuse on the first offense. They are both a matter of self-control.
There is nothing about either rule at all.
This isn’t how it went down.
Not sure if you read the original post or my response as there was nobody taken advantage of IMO. The Maniac would be whom? Me UTG, or BB to my right?
I am a believer that a rule is a rule and should be enforced. I made the raise and the local 'presumed' I pushed him all in for another $50k. I had only raised another $15k. Upon the incident of him exposing his cards, the dealer acted as she should and was very professional about the whole situation. She also managed to keep the table calm as a lot of people who had no clue about what was going on were trying to tell us how to continue, and that I didn’t throw out a proper raise. It’s none of their business but the people in the hand, the dealer and director.
WRT angle shooting…. There was no angle shoot in this case, but you could definitely use this to your advantage if you feel you are behind. It’s dirty and not my style, but considering this rule, you could definitely play many angles.
The player to my right was freaking out claiming that you didn't raise and what you did was wrong. (I think he just wanted you lose more chips) and I was basically telling him that you did raise and to be quite and sit down to let the dealer and the TD figure it out. Was also saying (not knowing what you had at the time) that it is with in your rights to get a ruling just to clarify the situation.
The player to my right was freaking out claiming that you didn't raise and what you did was wrong. (I think he just wanted you lose more chips) and I was basically telling him that you did raise and to be quite and sit down to let the dealer and the TD figure it out. Was also saying (not knowing what you had at the time) that it is with in your rights to get a ruling just to clarify the situation.
Either which way it worked out in your favour, player A.
Any answer that results in the hand being dead is wrong.
Yes, he was freaking out. Totally out of line and not his business as I mentioned in the previous post. It pissed me off when he said I didn’t raise, as he clearly wasn’t paying attention. He was getting a heated over a hand that didn’t involve him.
MickeyHoldemwas thought that some maniac was being taken advantage of. There was no maniac and nobody was being taken advantage of. I had no problem with the way the house handled it. The dealer was professional in diffusing the player to your right as well as getting the TD involved.
BBC, re: a hand being declared dead…. If the house rule says the hand is dead or vice versa, then so be it. Seneca and TDA, as I know since the tourney, do not declare hand dead…. Ever. I would like to think that there are times when a hand should be declared dead, and those instances should be at the discretion of the TD with proper information provided from the dealer/involved players. Regardless, I am a firm believer in paying attention to the game and following the rules, so in this case when the TD stepped in and informed me of the ruling, I had no issue with the decision.
I was thinking about this and he broke two rules actually first openly talking about his hand. "I call, I have an Ace"
And then second showing his hands when he was not all-in.
BTW I didn't see the Ace when he opened only the 7d.
It only started getting heated when the guy beside me start freaking out that you didn't put money in the pot while standing up.
The dealer totally did their job and the TD did as well, it was the crazy guy that really caused it to become heated and he wasn't in the hand at all.
Agreed Chris. Admittedly, I got a little heated as well.... but a lot of my aggravation was from the guy on your right who accused me several times of not making a proper raise.... from what I recall, he explained to the definition of a min raise in a condescending tone. Ok.... I'm 8 of 111 people left in the tourney.... uh, what exactly is a min raise again?
I think I was also a little shocked when he told me he held and ace and showed me the cards.
Like other cardrooms, Seneca has confusing rules where exposing cards is OK heads-up in a tournament, but the hand becomes dead in a cash game. Until house rules become standardized or at least available for players to read, players need to protect their money from being victimized by an unwritten or unknown rule.
Ok, I wasn't sure what MickeyHoldem was referring to re: maniac? and being taken advantage of. Thanks for clearing that up.
It is odd to have contradicting rules for cash and tourney in the same room. I did notice the rule board on the wall to your right as you are exiting. I didn't bother go over the rule in question as I wasn't too keen to stick around once I was knocked out.