hey im lookin to get some reading up on poker over the holidays, and i cant really decide on what book I should purchase, does anyone have any good references?
For tournaments, Harrington on Hold'em 1, 2, and 3. More advanced, Tournament Poker for Advanced Players.
Others include The Theory of Poker, No Limit Hold'em: Theory and Practice, Small Stakes Hold'em, Winning Low-Limit Hold'em, or even our own Dave Scharf's book Winning at Poker: Essential Hints & Tips.
hey im lookin to get some reading up on poker over the holidays, and i cant really decide on what book I should purchase, does anyone have any good references?
What do you play? What games? What limits? Live or online?
What books have you read already?
I'm reading, "Middle Limit Holdem"
I've just finished re-reading , Hold'em Poker For Advanced Players
and
How Good is Your Limit Hold'em?
Omaha Hi, is it pot limit? If so I would recommend "Secrets of Professional Pot-Limit Omaha" (Rolf Slotboom).
There has been very little written about limit O (as opposed to limit O8). For Limit O8, Ray Zee's book (High-Low Split Poker for Advanced Players") about the split games is excellent for its technical breadth, but the O8 section in Super System 2 by Baldwin and Gregorich is very very good as well and easier to grasp.
For NLHE cash games:
"No Limit Holdem: Theory and Practice" (Sklansky, Miller)
"Professional NL Holdem, Volume 1"(Flynn, Mehta, Miller).
Both of these are published by 2+2.
There is also an extensive NL section in Super System 1 and 2 (more or less the same), written by Doyle Brunson. I've read some commentary that this section is much less applicable to the way NLHE is played in cash games these days, as opposed to the past. I concur with these opinions.
I buy all my poker books from amazon.ca, but you should be able to find the two NLHE books in most Chapters or Indigo stores.
If you want a poker read but not necessarily strategy I just finished Bigger Deal by Anthony Holden. It was quite good, with lots of "poker lifestyle" and tourney excerpts.
"Bigger Deal" is not nearly as good as "Big Deal", Holden's original foray into the poker world. Holden's insights into post-Moneymaker poker era are far less interesting than his circa-1990 musings.
My edition of "Bigger Deal" is filled with hand description errors.
A Alvarez's "Biggest Game in Town" is probably the best poker non-fiction, non-instructional book ever written.
For a beginner a book is a great learning tool. I think you can only learn so much from a poker book because there is so much that goes on in a poker hand that just can't be expressed in a book. Tournaments are less complex than cash games and for that reason Harrington on Holdem is a great book. Also the game of poker is always evolving and things written in books may just be outdated. For example there was a time when a river overbet was usually a bluff but now it is usually a big hand.
I think the 2 best ways to improve your poker game are by actually playing and by watching someone better than you play and hearing their thought process on each hand. This is why i think that training sites are the best way to learn because you can watch videos of top players and listen to what they have to say on each hand. Cash games are so situation dependent and when you are actually watching the hands take place you get a much better feel for table dynamics, past history and the flow of the game rather than reading about a hand example in a book.
I would also argue that most of the instructors on training sites are better NL holdem players than most of the people who have written books.
Actually I was going to post exactly what obv wrote, except for the part of books being overated, they are still a valuable source. Cash games are a more situational strategy so its hard to translate into written words.
Learning from online forums is fine, but post a hand, and 90% of your answers will be the "book" answer. Not neccessarily wrong, just doesn't dwelve into extral level thinking. Plus learning from players with proven success is definately >EV than unknown success.
Also, theres no need to pay for 'training' when you have a million online poker players that read forums and are dying to help you improve.
Do you seriously think that tournaments are more complex than cash games? How often is there a big river decision in a tourney? Just by the nature of the stack sizes cash games are way way more complex then tourneys. It took me much longer to become a significant winner in cash games than in tourneys.
Yes there are lots of people posting on forums that you can learn from but how many posters are actually winning players? I see so much bad advice given out on forums... just glancing at a big forum like pocketfives there are few legitimately good strategy posts imo. Saying that there is no need to pay for training sites shows that you have never signed up at one because it is an investment that you will not regret.
I've watched about a half dozen of the stoxpoker video's. The ones I've seen have been good.
I've heard that cardrunners is mainly 6 max NL cash games and that pokerxfactor is mainly tourneys? Which video's have you found most helpful.
My background is mainly full ring limit games.
I've been starting to learn No Limit and am just starting to learn 6 max.
So far I've read about 70 books. I may be kinda dense since I've had to read some of them 17 times or more to really understand them.
I've also watched about a dozen DVD's Some of them are good....
pokerxfactor was pretty much all tourneys when i used to be a member and the cash game videos they had werent near as good as other sites. cardrunners is pretty much everything, they have a new video each day and i think the schedule for videos is: monday - low stakes cash, tuesday - tourney, wednesday - mid stakes cash, thursday - tourney, friday - high stakes cash and the weekends vary from limit to PLO to sngs to razz. They have a low stakes video series that i would highly recommed if you are just getting into 6 max cash games. To be honest the quality of videos at cardrunners have gone down in the past while but i think but there are still plenty of good videos on the site, especially if you are just getting into 6 max cash games. Almost all the cash game videos are 6 max but they do have a few full ring videos.
Do you seriously think that tournaments are more complex than cash games? How often is there a big river decision in a tourney? Just by the nature of the stack sizes cash games are way way more complex then tourneys. It took me much longer to become a significant winner in cash games than in tourneys.
Nah, I'm just smart enough to not try to rate one and being more or less difficult than the other.
Yes there are lots of people posting on forums that you can learn from but how many posters are actually winning players?
Well see, thats the fun part. You actually READ everyones comments and then you .. gasp.. use your brain to figure out whats good and whats crap. You use the actual discussion that occured as a guide.
Saying that there is no need to pay for training sites shows that you have never signed up at one because it is an investment that you will not regret.
Who are you shilling for then? This sentence makes be believe you are marketing something.
I understand the market for these training type sites. They prey on the people who just don't realise how much variance there is in the game, and that the true 'tough decisions' really are grey. Watching some dude play a tournament has some value, but not enough to pay for.
Also, does Stox (or whoever) play survivorship bias on the videos they post? IE, that guy that says he's a winner.. How do you know? Do they comission 40-50 guys to play a tournament and then pick whoeever went farther? If so, the advice is pretty useless. Is it always the same guy posting videos or doe they change randomly? Do you want the advice of some donk who happened to go far in a tourney in a one-off?
Nah, I'm just smart enough to not try to rate one and being more or less difficult than the other.
There is a reason the top cash game players are considered the best players in the world
Well see, thats the fun part. You actually READ everyones comments and then you .. gasp.. use your brain to figure out whats good and whats crap. You use the actual discussion that occured as a guide.
If you are asking a question about a hand it is because you don't know what the best play is so how are you supposed to judge what is best when people argue about what to do.
Who are you shilling for then? This sentence makes be believe you are marketing something.
I'm not marketing anything, I just owe a lot of my success in poker to the folks at the various training sites have joined and think that if you want to take your game to the next level you would be crazy to not pay the 25 bucks a month that it costs to join one of these sites.
I understand the market for these training type sites. They prey on the people who just don't realise how much variance there is in the game, and that the true 'tough decisions' really are grey. Watching some dude play a tournament has some value, but not enough to pay for.
True tough decisions will be less grey after watching and listening to the thought process of a player like cts, sbrugby, green plastic or stinger when they are faced with a tough decision. Have you ever watched one of these videos? Because if you haven't how can you say that watching a guy like westmenloAA (the cardplayer online player of the year) play a tourney isn't valuable enough to pay for.
Also, does Stox (or whoever) play survivorship bias on the videos they post? IE, that guy that says he's a winner.. How do you know? Do they comission 40-50 guys to play a tournament and then pick whoeever went farther? If so, the advice is pretty useless. Is it always the same guy posting videos or doe they change randomly? Do you want the advice of some donk who happened to go far in a tourney in a one-off?
I'm not a member of stoxpoker since it seems like more of a limit site but all of the instructors posted their 2007 graphs on their site.... http://www.stoxpoker.com/node/1602
seems like they are doing fairly well.
I'm not gonna sign up at a site run by clowns... the people running these sites are among the biggest winners online, I would imagine their advice would be somewhat helpful. I'm glad people like you don't think these resources are useful.
There is a reason the top cash game players are considered the best players in the world
1) Lol.
2) There's no world rankings of cash game players
So I'd like to know how you come to that conclusion.
If you are asking a question about a hand it is because you don't know what the best play is so how are you supposed to judge what is best when people argue about what to do.
Hint: It's between your ears.
True tough decisions will be less grey
No, they will just try to convince you that thier interpretation of the situation is correct. It doesn't make it less gray.
Do you ever think about how poker strategy evolves? Every year, some new revelation about poker comes out, to tell you that what you've been doing is wrong and why.. Do you know why they're able to do that? If you approach the exact same situation from a different path, it can lead you to a different action. The onus is on YOU to provide the critical eye and figure out if it's bullshit or not. You can do that without spending $x.
I'm glad people like you don't think these resources are useful.
I didn't say they're useless, I'm saying that theres no need to pay for them. It's the difference between active and passive learning. You need to be active (ie playing when the situation arrises) and not just saying "OH yeah, I woulda done the same thing" lie lie lie.
So my point is, the situations that you actually PLAYED and question are far more valuable than passively watching some video and trying to learn from that.
I think poker is a lot like learning math. Everyone in school looks at the back of the book when they can't figure out the answer and says "oh thats easy" but when you actually go write the exam you fail. Why because as much theory as you know, if you don't practice you will not have enough information to answer the next set of questions.
My advice for anyone who is learning the game is to read every poker book you can get your hand on. No matter what anyone says, read every book, because one person said "oh this book is straight for beginners...blah blah concepts already explained in previous books" YOU may find something that may unlock a key you were struggling with.
I know this has happened to me on several occasions throughout my career playing poker where I feel I moved up another step in the rung.
I also use Cardrunners and watch all the videos, even videos that don't apply to my level that I normally play at. Why? For reference....you can never have enough information and never feel that it is wasted information.
For anyone who is starting out learning the game, here is the Cliff Notes of my continued learning progression:
1. Read every poker book
2. Read poker forums daily (here, 2+2, 55s, cardrunners)
3. Go out and play (online/live/home game) in whatever stakes you are comfortable with, consider it a learning experience and "paying" your dues.
4. Start to watch players who you see beating the game. Try to play along with them and if you are lucky enough ask questions. I have played many games in Toronto and casinos where a hand is completed and a few minutes later I will ask or try to strike up a conversation about the logic behind the play whether it was good or bad (try to be polite when doing this..do berate the play either way....its good to understand your opponenents and how they think most won't care to share "war stories" with you anyways)
5. Look for like minded people who have a passion for poker who won't get tired of talking strategy hand histories and just ideas. This is a key for development because you don't have someone talking about sports or the daily news. Have other friends for that. These friends for the most part should be 99% poker related.
6. Set goals and have fun. You will win, you will lose. Enjoy what you are doing and have a passion. If you work hard enough you will reap rewards.
Comments
Others include The Theory of Poker, No Limit Hold'em: Theory and Practice, Small Stakes Hold'em, Winning Low-Limit Hold'em, or even our own Dave Scharf's book Winning at Poker: Essential Hints & Tips.
I am fairly impressed with Zen and the Art of Poker.
Harrington's of course and SuperSystem.
I would recommend getting them online, much cheaper than B&M especially if you're plan to buy multiple titles.
But there is one must read book: "Theory of Poker" by David Sklansky.
What do you play? What games? What limits? Live or online?
What books have you read already?
I'm reading, "Middle Limit Holdem"
I've just finished re-reading , Hold'em Poker For Advanced Players
and
How Good is Your Limit Hold'em?
Online varies from limits anywhere from 10 cents to $30, and straight NL
There has been very little written about limit O (as opposed to limit O8). For Limit O8, Ray Zee's book (High-Low Split Poker for Advanced Players") about the split games is excellent for its technical breadth, but the O8 section in Super System 2 by Baldwin and Gregorich is very very good as well and easier to grasp.
For NLHE cash games:
"No Limit Holdem: Theory and Practice" (Sklansky, Miller)
"Professional NL Holdem, Volume 1"(Flynn, Mehta, Miller).
Both of these are published by 2+2.
There is also an extensive NL section in Super System 1 and 2 (more or less the same), written by Doyle Brunson. I've read some commentary that this section is much less applicable to the way NLHE is played in cash games these days, as opposed to the past. I concur with these opinions.
I buy all my poker books from amazon.ca, but you should be able to find the two NLHE books in most Chapters or Indigo stores.
My edition of "Bigger Deal" is filled with hand description errors.
A Alvarez's "Biggest Game in Town" is probably the best poker non-fiction, non-instructional book ever written.
looking for cash game related, not tournament.
Can you expand upon this?
Why do you think books are overrated?
What books have you read?
What parts of cardrunners has been most valuable to you?
I think the 2 best ways to improve your poker game are by actually playing and by watching someone better than you play and hearing their thought process on each hand. This is why i think that training sites are the best way to learn because you can watch videos of top players and listen to what they have to say on each hand. Cash games are so situation dependent and when you are actually watching the hands take place you get a much better feel for table dynamics, past history and the flow of the game rather than reading about a hand example in a book.
I would also argue that most of the instructors on training sites are better NL holdem players than most of the people who have written books.
Excuse me?
Also, theres no need to pay for 'training' when you have a million online poker players that read forums and are dying to help you improve.
Learning from online forums is fine, but post a hand, and 90% of your answers will be the "book" answer. Not neccessarily wrong, just doesn't dwelve into extral level thinking. Plus learning from players with proven success is definately >EV than unknown success.
Do you seriously think that tournaments are more complex than cash games? How often is there a big river decision in a tourney? Just by the nature of the stack sizes cash games are way way more complex then tourneys. It took me much longer to become a significant winner in cash games than in tourneys.
Yes there are lots of people posting on forums that you can learn from but how many posters are actually winning players? I see so much bad advice given out on forums... just glancing at a big forum like pocketfives there are few legitimately good strategy posts imo. Saying that there is no need to pay for training sites shows that you have never signed up at one because it is an investment that you will not regret.
I've heard that cardrunners is mainly 6 max NL cash games and that pokerxfactor is mainly tourneys? Which video's have you found most helpful.
My background is mainly full ring limit games.
I've been starting to learn No Limit and am just starting to learn 6 max.
So far I've read about 70 books. I may be kinda dense since I've had to read some of them 17 times or more to really understand them.
I've also watched about a dozen DVD's Some of them are good....
Nah, I'm just smart enough to not try to rate one and being more or less difficult than the other.
Well see, thats the fun part. You actually READ everyones comments and then you .. gasp.. use your brain to figure out whats good and whats crap. You use the actual discussion that occured as a guide.
Who are you shilling for then? This sentence makes be believe you are marketing something.
I understand the market for these training type sites. They prey on the people who just don't realise how much variance there is in the game, and that the true 'tough decisions' really are grey. Watching some dude play a tournament has some value, but not enough to pay for.
Also, does Stox (or whoever) play survivorship bias on the videos they post? IE, that guy that says he's a winner.. How do you know? Do they comission 40-50 guys to play a tournament and then pick whoeever went farther? If so, the advice is pretty useless. Is it always the same guy posting videos or doe they change randomly? Do you want the advice of some donk who happened to go far in a tourney in a one-off?
If you are asking a question about a hand it is because you don't know what the best play is so how are you supposed to judge what is best when people argue about what to do.
I'm not marketing anything, I just owe a lot of my success in poker to the folks at the various training sites have joined and think that if you want to take your game to the next level you would be crazy to not pay the 25 bucks a month that it costs to join one of these sites.
True tough decisions will be less grey after watching and listening to the thought process of a player like cts, sbrugby, green plastic or stinger when they are faced with a tough decision. Have you ever watched one of these videos? Because if you haven't how can you say that watching a guy like westmenloAA (the cardplayer online player of the year) play a tourney isn't valuable enough to pay for.
I'm not a member of stoxpoker since it seems like more of a limit site but all of the instructors posted their 2007 graphs on their site.... http://www.stoxpoker.com/node/1602
seems like they are doing fairly well.
I'm not gonna sign up at a site run by clowns... the people running these sites are among the biggest winners online, I would imagine their advice would be somewhat helpful. I'm glad people like you don't think these resources are useful.
1) Lol.
2) There's no world rankings of cash game players
So I'd like to know how you come to that conclusion.
Hint: It's between your ears.
No, they will just try to convince you that thier interpretation of the situation is correct. It doesn't make it less gray.
Do you ever think about how poker strategy evolves? Every year, some new revelation about poker comes out, to tell you that what you've been doing is wrong and why.. Do you know why they're able to do that? If you approach the exact same situation from a different path, it can lead you to a different action. The onus is on YOU to provide the critical eye and figure out if it's bullshit or not. You can do that without spending $x.
I didn't say they're useless, I'm saying that theres no need to pay for them. It's the difference between active and passive learning. You need to be active (ie playing when the situation arrises) and not just saying "OH yeah, I woulda done the same thing" lie lie lie.
So my point is, the situations that you actually PLAYED and question are far more valuable than passively watching some video and trying to learn from that.
My advice for anyone who is learning the game is to read every poker book you can get your hand on. No matter what anyone says, read every book, because one person said "oh this book is straight for beginners...blah blah concepts already explained in previous books" YOU may find something that may unlock a key you were struggling with.
I know this has happened to me on several occasions throughout my career playing poker where I feel I moved up another step in the rung.
I also use Cardrunners and watch all the videos, even videos that don't apply to my level that I normally play at. Why? For reference....you can never have enough information and never feel that it is wasted information.
For anyone who is starting out learning the game, here is the Cliff Notes of my continued learning progression:
1. Read every poker book
2. Read poker forums daily (here, 2+2, 55s, cardrunners)
3. Go out and play (online/live/home game) in whatever stakes you are comfortable with, consider it a learning experience and "paying" your dues.
4. Start to watch players who you see beating the game. Try to play along with them and if you are lucky enough ask questions. I have played many games in Toronto and casinos where a hand is completed and a few minutes later I will ask or try to strike up a conversation about the logic behind the play whether it was good or bad (try to be polite when doing this..do berate the play either way....its good to understand your opponenents and how they think most won't care to share "war stories" with you anyways)
5. Look for like minded people who have a passion for poker who won't get tired of talking strategy hand histories and just ideas. This is a key for development because you don't have someone talking about sports or the daily news. Have other friends for that. These friends for the most part should be 99% poker related.
6. Set goals and have fun. You will win, you will lose. Enjoy what you are doing and have a passion. If you work hard enough you will reap rewards.