My question to the ppl saying woog should have checked his flopped two pair is..... did you bother to notice that the flop is all diamonds? I dunno about youz guyz, but if I flop any number of pair on a suited flop I bet out so as to not give any free cards for my opponent to hit his flush draw (if he has one).
Kristy vs caddy. This should be good. I'm behind Kristy all the way. And what a view!
If guy's really a nit it's kinda close and folding woulnd't be bad, but you're getting almost 1.5:1 on your stack so you only need slightly over 40% equity and you usually have at least that much with your 11 outs. Plus there's like a million ways he can be bluffing and no one ever leads into you with a flush here, espeically not a nut flush.
Sorry for helping to turn this thread into chick fight.
OP posed a solid question that invoked some quality discussion. Although I tried to inject a thought process about the hand and an educated guess about the cards villain was holding (right or wrong) but I was obviously trumped by the following gems:
wow you have way too much time on your hands. (and remember, that this is coming from me)
the point that I was making to Whitehorse, wrapped in a compliment of his game, that you've conveniently overlooked: is that he could have saved his tournament life here, as he certainly has every asset that I have: and probably not half my liabilities.
Edit: Dial up...WH did fold..somehow with all the suggestions to call I twisted it to think that WH did call. gg/nh/wp
This might be a long term call, his play may be fine in a vacuum..but there is an area that he CAN work on here, which is clearly defined.
I was going to end there, but I'm mildly pissed off now.
The fact is that you're an obnoxious ego-centric prick, Caddy. Which is fine..and for the most part I enjoy your posts....but kindly remember that not everything that I say is a personal slam to you. Barring someone mentioning posters I hate, I don't even remember that you exist and I read your posts without even nec. recognizing that they were infact typed by the single biggest piece of shit who ever logged in.
OK, this is really a simple scenario. You just need to ask, "What hands call preflop that lead out on this flop?" To do this properly you need two lists. 1-what calls preflop, 2-what leads out on this flop. Then take the subset that's in both 1 & 2.
1. What calls preflop:
AQo to A10o, KQo to K10o, QJo to Q9o, J10o to J9o
AJs to A9s, KQs to K9s, QJs to Q9s, J10s to J9s, 109s
88-22
(I think AKs, AKo, AQs, any pair 99+ all shove preflop)
2. What hands bet out on the 3d 10d Kd flop:
KK, 1010, 33, K10, K3, 103, AdX, QdK any K 10 or 3
1 & 2 - So put them together and you get: 33, K10, QdKx, Ad10x, AdJx, AdQx, Qd10x
Somebody stove that vs JsJd... and please don't get the flop wrong.
IMO, this is definitely a push in a cash game, but for your tournament life I think it's a fold (followed by a "fuckin king!").
/g2
Note: x = not diamond
P.s. FWIW here's what I came up with at first glance (pre 1&2 analysis):
KxQd, K10, Kx9d, Ad10x, AdJx, AdQx, 33, maybe Qd10x, maybe but very unlikely to lead out QdJx. Almost exactly what my analysis produced woot!
There's a couple comments about my preflop call and agreed the hand is not the greatest. I think a couple of items are not taken into account, we are playing basically a 16 person sitngo that has 2 or three people out at this point and I have almost double the original starting stack. The call is costing 150 into a pot that has 275 so 1.8 to 1 and the hand has some possibilities. I easily get away if I don't hit and I'm still in good chip postion. My opinion I can't check with 3 diamonds on the flop, if the flop is not all suited I definitely check. Many players would have taken my lead out as weakness and pushed. In the majority of those cases we would have racing for your tournament life when I have the advantage.
There's a couple comments about my preflop call and agreed the hand is not the greatest. I think a couple of items are not taken into account, we are playing basically a 16 person sitngo that has 2 or three people out at this point and I have almost double the original starting stack. The call is costing 150 into a pot that has 275 so 1.8 to 1 and the hand has some possibilities. I easily get away if I don't hit and I'm still in good chip postion. My opinion I can't check with 3 diamonds on the flop, if the flop is not all suited I definitely check. Many players would have taken my lead out as weakness and pushed. In the majority of those cases we would have racing for your tournament life when I have the advantage.
As I told Kristy privately, I don't understand why ppl are saying your call was "light". Especially whitehorse's first line of his post only mentioning AK, AQ. WTF?!?!
K10s to close the action, with the villain having 4x the bet behind to pay me off. I call that all day. Just look at my post listing hands that call preflop to see what I would call with. J9o... then maybe you can call it light gg Roger
/g2
200 cpf bucks says Watts or someone I respect is going to tell me to read a book
the point that I was making to Whitehorse, wrapped in a compliment of his game, that you've conveniently overlooked: is that he could have saved his tournament life here, as he certainly has every asset that I have: and probably not half my liabilities.
This might be a long term call, his play may be fine in a vacuum..but there is an area that he CAN work on here, which is clearly defined.
Habitually passing up +EV opportunities, even thin ones with an M in the low teens not good play IMO. Recognizing +EV spots and aggressively going after them pays dividends.
Pick a better spot is a bullshit way to play poker.
The fact is that you're an obnoxious ego-centric prick, Caddy.
"Hi pot. It's me, Kettle."
I am low limit donk and there are a million better players and a million better posters. But have been beating low limits for quite some time now. I try to give my opinion for the sake that maybe someone can learn something from it and maybe I can too. Pay it forward from all of the posters I have learned from in the past. I acknowledge posts that teach me something and the good posters who contribute here. Points that I make are always strongly debated but if someone can intelligently counter what I have to say I am very open to receiving it and learning from it.
Unfortunately your posts always seem to skim the surface of intelligent discussion and head straight to the mud slinging.
2. What hands bet out on the 3d 10d Kd flop: KK, 1010, 33, K10, K3, 103, AdX, QdK any K 10 or 3
If I were woog I would bet out that size bet after the flop with any hand that I might have called the preflop bet with.
There is a good chance whitehorse did not catch and doesn't want to go home. It only costs $350 to put his $895 on the line.
I can check, I can bet for value or I can go all in. There is no point going all in when you can make a value bet that effectively does the same thing in the other players mind. Checking is a bad move as he will raise all in with a lesser hand then he will call an all in with and it puts you to the decision not him.
Value bet it, put his life on the line for cheap.
In this particular case Woog lucked out catching his one over and somehow, whether correctly or not, whitehorse got away from it.
There is never just one way to play a hand . Stop arguing who is right or wrong and just entertain other strategies.
There is a good chance he did not catch and doesn't want to go home. It only costs $350 to put his $895 on the line.
I can check, I can bet for value or I can go all in. There is no point going all in when you can make a value bet that effectively does the same thing in the other players mind. Checking is a bad move as he will raise all in with a lesser hand then he will call and all in with and it puts you to the decision not him.
Woog's bet wasn't for value. Woog, please confirm this for me. You don't bet "for value" on an ALL DIAMOND flop unless you have AdXd
I really don't want to fight... why so aggressive?
Who's fighting? All my posts have a implied at the end. My aggressiveness probably has something to do with getting stabbed with 3 needles today (vaccinations - I'm travelling to Ecuador in 4 weeks). Ugh... I hate needles.
Seriously, I feel like I'm speaking french. My point to the op is the simplest in the world. Are you really not understanding that Whitehorse's tournament should NOT have ended on that hand?
Someone back me up here- run the hand but give the opponent only k-10, 10-x(x=2nd pr) ad,kx, k,qd, k,k, 10,10, x,x where x makes bottom set and made non-face flushes, that you can justify calling with pf (which are virtually none)
There's your math, and it is in my favour.
I am telling you that as someone playing- Woog was not betting less than a king there, and we cannot presume the draw is live, and even if we could. WH is still a dog FOR HIS TOURNAMENT LIFE!
I would consider from what I've read that Whitehorse is a VERY solid player and his edge in this tournament was substantial. He does not need to put his chips in this far behind.
So Caddy once we:
a: establish that yes maybe, with no player information and/or in a cash game it could be a call
b: get you up to speed on the idea that your tournament life is finite
c: recognize that there are other human beings and that they may be prone to certain actions or reactions and we can predict and/or manipulate them.
perhaps this could spawn into a different type of conversation, like how to sense the strength in your opponent, or dealing with the predisposition to make crying calls....whatever.
But no, king-fcking-caddy says 'duh, the math says call independant of reads' and we're supposed to shut the thread down. Who is dumbing the thought process down now?
I'm telling someone I sat at the table with "Hey, you definately missed something..."
Lastly, for the majority of our fights, I've understood what you think you are saying, can you claim the same?
So in summation, if you could quit being a retard fck that would be super.
Sincerest apologies to the WH and Woog for the hijack
I am telling you that as someone playing- Woog was not betting less than a king there, and we cannot presume the draw is live, and even if we could. WH is still a dog FOR HIS TOURNAMENT LIFE!
I'm telling someone I sat at the table with "Hey, you definately missed something..."
I wish everyone at the table's gave as credit for a hand as you did. Understanding your sample size to get a read was very small (half a sitngo).
I think another view to look at is the hand itself K10, called to a raise, no matter what the pot was, etc...it puts you in trouble because you are pretty much hoping to hit two pair, maybe a 10. But then the range of hands that you can collide with to a 4x range presents a problem.
IE. You call a raise with K10, this board presents a straight and a flush draw which in certain cases causes problems, because now you are stuck, do you bet or do you shove. Then what happens when you bet and you get shoved on. How do you get away.
Next you hit a naked 10 on the flop, who knows if player that 4x bet opened with JJ,QQ,KK,AA, etc...
The fact that there are 3 diamonds on the board does present a problem but once again with the stack sizes in this case and with the 4x betting range of a solid player you would reason to believe there is a possibility he may have hit a part of the board or at least have a draw to complete his hand based on that board. The probability of flopping the nuts is low.
K10 is one of those hands that granted you have odds to make a call but looking forward to the flop and turn you may get yourself into trouble so the risk value in calling a raise with this hand out of position would lead me to fold in this spot, however if I do hit the board, it's safe to say my chips are going in the middle unless I have a super read on my opponent to believe he flopped a flush.
I'm not implying that you CAN'T play any other way, (how would I know) just that you weren't for whatever reason...maybe you were watching TV, or enjoying the chat, or busy dl-ing porn. W/e the reason strong meant strong last night.
Comments
I WILL NOT THREE-WAY with you and your wife. I kind of heart you for shipping that comic though..gg
btw, she says your dick looks bigger in this photo than in real life.
Trust me. I wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire.
Kristy vs caddy. This should be good. I'm behind Kristy all the way. And what a view!
/g2
Fortunately my looks came from my maternal side, but I am all Dad from the waist down.
Sorry for helping to turn this thread into chick fight.
OP posed a solid question that invoked some quality discussion. Although I tried to inject a thought process about the hand and an educated guess about the cards villain was holding (right or wrong) but I was obviously trumped by the following gems:
the point that I was making to Whitehorse, wrapped in a compliment of his game, that you've conveniently overlooked: is that he could have saved his tournament life here, as he certainly has every asset that I have: and probably not half my liabilities.
Edit: Dial up...WH did fold..somehow with all the suggestions to call I twisted it to think that WH did call. gg/nh/wp
This might be a long term call, his play may be fine in a vacuum..but there is an area that he CAN work on here, which is clearly defined.
I was going to end there, but I'm mildly pissed off now.
The fact is that you're an obnoxious ego-centric prick, Caddy. Which is fine..and for the most part I enjoy your posts....but kindly remember that not everything that I say is a personal slam to you. Barring someone mentioning posters I hate, I don't even remember that you exist and I read your posts without even nec. recognizing that they were infact typed by the single biggest piece of shit who ever logged in.
1. What calls preflop:
AQo to A10o, KQo to K10o, QJo to Q9o, J10o to J9o
AJs to A9s, KQs to K9s, QJs to Q9s, J10s to J9s, 109s
88-22
(I think AKs, AKo, AQs, any pair 99+ all shove preflop)
2. What hands bet out on the 3d 10d Kd flop:
KK, 1010, 33, K10, K3, 103, AdX, QdK any K 10 or 3
1 & 2 - So put them together and you get:
33, K10, QdKx, Ad10x, AdJx, AdQx, Qd10x
Somebody stove that vs JsJd... and please don't get the flop wrong.
IMO, this is definitely a push in a cash game, but for your tournament life I think it's a fold (followed by a "fuckin king!").
/g2
Note: x = not diamond
P.s. FWIW here's what I came up with at first glance (pre 1&2 analysis):
KxQd, K10, Kx9d, Ad10x, AdJx, AdQx, 33, maybe Qd10x, maybe but very unlikely to lead out QdJx. Almost exactly what my analysis produced woot!
K10s to close the action, with the villain having 4x the bet behind to pay me off. I call that all day. Just look at my post listing hands that call preflop to see what I would call with. J9o... then maybe you can call it light
/g2
200 cpf bucks says Watts or someone I respect is going to tell me to read a book
Habitually passing up +EV opportunities, even thin ones with an M in the low teens not good play IMO. Recognizing +EV spots and aggressively going after them pays dividends.
Pick a better spot is a bullshit way to play poker.
"Hi pot. It's me, Kettle."
I am low limit donk and there are a million better players and a million better posters. But have been beating low limits for quite some time now. I try to give my opinion for the sake that maybe someone can learn something from it and maybe I can too. Pay it forward from all of the posters I have learned from in the past. I acknowledge posts that teach me something and the good posters who contribute here. Points that I make are always strongly debated but if someone can intelligently counter what I have to say I am very open to receiving it and learning from it.
Unfortunately your posts always seem to skim the surface of intelligent discussion and head straight to the mud slinging.
You give way too much bad advice on here Kristy.
KK, 1010, 33, K10, K3, 103, AdX, QdK any K 10 or 3
If I were woog I would bet out that size bet after the flop with any hand that I might have called the preflop bet with.
There is a good chance whitehorse did not catch and doesn't want to go home. It only costs $350 to put his $895 on the line.
I can check, I can bet for value or I can go all in. There is no point going all in when you can make a value bet that effectively does the same thing in the other players mind. Checking is a bad move as he will raise all in with a lesser hand then he will call an all in with and it puts you to the decision not him.
Value bet it, put his life on the line for cheap.
In this particular case Woog lucked out catching his one over and somehow, whether correctly or not, whitehorse got away from it.
There is never just one way to play a hand
Woog's bet wasn't for value. Woog, please confirm this for me. You don't bet "for value" on an ALL DIAMOND flop unless you have AdXd
What?!?!?! Are you folding top two pair if he pushes on you?!?!? Because that's the only way your post makes sense.
/g2
There are so many hands whitehorse would fold to a $350 bet by woog. No diamond, low pair, AQ, AJ, A10...
/g2
Who's fighting? All my posts have a
/g2
/g2
Seriously, I feel like I'm speaking french. My point to the op is the simplest in the world. Are you really not understanding that Whitehorse's tournament should NOT have ended on that hand?
Someone back me up here- run the hand but give the opponent only k-10, 10-x(x=2nd pr) ad,kx, k,qd, k,k, 10,10, x,x where x makes bottom set and made non-face flushes, that you can justify calling with pf (which are virtually none)
There's your math, and it is in my favour.
I am telling you that as someone playing- Woog was not betting less than a king there, and we cannot presume the draw is live, and even if we could. WH is still a dog FOR HIS TOURNAMENT LIFE!
I would consider from what I've read that Whitehorse is a VERY solid player and his edge in this tournament was substantial. He does not need to put his chips in this far behind.
So Caddy once we:
a: establish that yes maybe, with no player information and/or in a cash game it could be a call
b: get you up to speed on the idea that your tournament life is finite
c: recognize that there are other human beings and that they may be prone to certain actions or reactions and we can predict and/or manipulate them.
perhaps this could spawn into a different type of conversation, like how to sense the strength in your opponent, or dealing with the predisposition to make crying calls....whatever.
But no, king-fcking-caddy says 'duh, the math says call independant of reads' and we're supposed to shut the thread down. Who is dumbing the thought process down now?
I'm telling someone I sat at the table with "Hey, you definately missed something..."
Lastly, for the majority of our fights, I've understood what you think you are saying, can you claim the same?
So in summation, if you could quit being a retard fck that would be super.
Sincerest apologies to the WH and Woog for the hijack
Game over. Now play nice ppl
/g2
I was only posting for the POTD, night all.
I wish everyone at the table's gave as credit for a hand as you did. Understanding your sample size to get a read was very small (half a sitngo).
Take Care
I think another view to look at is the hand itself K10, called to a raise, no matter what the pot was, etc...it puts you in trouble because you are pretty much hoping to hit two pair, maybe a 10. But then the range of hands that you can collide with to a 4x range presents a problem.
IE. You call a raise with K10, this board presents a straight and a flush draw which in certain cases causes problems, because now you are stuck, do you bet or do you shove. Then what happens when you bet and you get shoved on. How do you get away.
Next you hit a naked 10 on the flop, who knows if player that 4x bet opened with JJ,QQ,KK,AA, etc...
The fact that there are 3 diamonds on the board does present a problem but once again with the stack sizes in this case and with the 4x betting range of a solid player you would reason to believe there is a possibility he may have hit a part of the board or at least have a draw to complete his hand based on that board. The probability of flopping the nuts is low.
K10 is one of those hands that granted you have odds to make a call but looking forward to the flop and turn you may get yourself into trouble so the risk value in calling a raise with this hand out of position would lead me to fold in this spot, however if I do hit the board, it's safe to say my chips are going in the middle unless I have a super read on my opponent to believe he flopped a flush.
Thats poker.
I'm not implying that you CAN'T play any other way, (how would I know) just that you weren't for whatever reason...maybe you were watching TV, or enjoying the chat, or busy dl-ing porn. W/e the reason strong meant strong last night.