Tournament Question

Phippo44

Can anyone tell me where I can find resources on the legality and relevant government office (I assume its Ontario) that could be approached regarding setting up a large tournament (non casino). I am interested in approaching the correct office about the issuing of a one time permit to organize a large tournament in a rented venue (non casino) open to the public. Does anyone have any ideas which office? Obviously this would be quite a process for approval, however, based on the demand and lack of supply in Ontario for NLH tournaments, I think this would serve a need and help poker in this province. If anyone has any thoughts, they may email me at geoffphipps@hotmail.com.

Thanks. :canada:

ScottyZ

For starters, you might try the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario.

www.agco.on.ca

"The Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario (AGCO) was established February 23, 1998 under the Alcohol and Gaming Regulation and Public Protection Act, 1996. We are a quasi-judicial regulatory agency that reports to the Minister of Consumer and Business Services.

Our mandate is to regulate the sale, service, and consumption of beverage alcohol to promote moderation and responsible use, and to ensure that casino and charitable gaming is conducted in the public interest, by people with integrity, and in a manner that is socially and financially responsible."

ScottyZ

Phippo44

Thanks Scotty, I think youre right about the office. Ill follow up

Phippo44

I wanted to post the response I received from The Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario as well as the first part of the letter I wrote them. At least they responded quickly. The uselessness of their answer isnt surprising for our bureaucrats in this country.

Ridiculous.


Thank you for contacting the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario, Customer Service.
Please be advise that as per the Criminal Code of Canada and Order-In-Council 2688/93 only charitable or religious organizations may be licensed to manage and conduct lottery events pursuant to a license issued. In addition Poker Tournaments is not an event that is currently a licensable event. You should seek legal advise regarding this matter.
Should you require further information, please contact Customer Service at 416-326-8700 or toll free in Ontario at 1-800-522-2876.

To: licensing@agco.on.ca
Subject: Inquiry into Gaming Event


September 21, 2004

Dear Sir or Madam,

I am writing regarding an inquiry into a potential event involving gaming. I would like to inquire into whether or not a one time permit could be considered for issue for a poker event, and what conditions would be attached to such a permit.

The event would be tournament style Texas Hold'em Poker and open to the public for a small, flat buy-in (approximately $100 CAD). This would be a one day event, with the understanding that a permit would also be for one day. The venue of choice would be a large indoor space in the Metro-Toronto area such as a rented hotel convention hall or other banquet type facility having their own regulations regarding events. Security would be hired for the extent of the event, as well this would be a dry (no alcohol) event. Toronto offers many suitable convention venues for such an event. The number of participants is yet to be determined, but could easily surpass a few hundred.

alex_844

hmmm, that answer seems useful, it seems to say "NO you can't have a tournament because you aren't a church or charity"

now, based on that and my standing as an ordained minister of the Universal Life Church www.ulc.org i should be able to get appropriate permission right? so who's up for a big LEGAL tournament?

ScottyZ

it seems to say "NO you can't have a tournament because you aren't a church or charity"

It seems to say this about *lotteries*. It seems to say nothing at all about poker tournaments.

ScottyZ

Dave Scharf

I am *very* doubtful that you could get a poker tournament licensed outside a licensed venue. I hope you prove me wrong.

alex_844

Yes, thats true. I think though the idea behind lottery might be something where everybody has an equal chance at winning. I know thats a caveat of some US gaming laws and that would apply to a poker tournament (equal number of starting chips.) So you get yourself a good lawyer to argue that your tournament is a "lottery" and then you attach your religious organization to it... and voila, a tournament.

ScottyZ

alex_844 wrote:

Yes, thats true. I think though the idea behind lottery might be something where everybody has an equal chance at winning. I know thats a caveat of some US gaming laws and that would apply to a poker tournament (equal number of starting chips.) So you get yourself a good lawyer to argue that your tournament is a "lottery" and then you attach your religious organization to it... and voila, a tournament.

Even assuming a poker tournament could be classified as a lottery, and assuming the Universal Life Church could be classified as a valid religion, the proceeds of that lottery would still have to be "used for a charitable or religious object or purpose". (Criminal Code Sec 207 (1)(b))

And voila, a tournament. But one which you could not make a profit from running. It's already legal* to run a not-for-profit poker tournament without going through all this ULC lottery mumbo-jumbo.

ScottyZ

*Well, it depends.

BBC Z

alex_844 wrote:

Yes, thats true. I think though the idea behind lottery might be something where everybody has an equal chance at winning. I know thats a caveat of some US gaming laws and that would apply to a poker tournament (equal number of starting chips.) So you get yourself a good lawyer to argue that your tournament is a "lottery" and then you attach your religious organization to it... and voila, a tournament.

..and then go to jail for embezzlement.. Hmm.. Not a good idea.

I think you want to argue that poker is a game of skill and doesn't fall under ANY of the sections of law that talk about gambling. Then it would be considered the same thing as a sporting event's tournament where the organizers can skim off an entry fee no problem.

alex_844

I was under the impression that noone wanted to run any of these tournaments for profit. Just for the love of the game. As far as I know casinos make very little off tournaments, its the traffic and publicity they produce that are the impetus. Starting a cardroom is the only way to make significant money off poker... and thats a whole other can of worms.


ps. I'm allowed to perform marriages in most states Scotty... so thats some pretty credible mumbo jumbo

Phippo44

I mentioned to them that I would be running it not for profit. I could easily start a 'charitable' organization. I started a legit one in university and could do it again. Could even make the charity something like 'underserved poker players in ONtario' and any profit would go to the prize pool or the setup of another tourney.

This tournament I would like to set up. In this case, I would have to invest the time for a lawyer however.

Regardless, the lack of detail provided by the Commission is completely ridiculous.

ScottyZ

I was under the impression that noone wanted to run any of these tournaments for profit.

A strange assumption.

Even still, I would think most people would not want to take a monetary *loss* from running a tournament. It's something of a legal gray area what sorts of things you can and cannot charge the entrants for.

The law (as I read it, not being a lawyer) is foggy in terms of whether or not you may legally charge players for things like

1. Space rental
2. Equipment rental
3. Equipment purchase
4. Food/drinks
5. Staff

My intution is that you can charge players for none of these things. Worse than that, I believe that anyone making any money in any way, directly or indirectly, due to the fact that a poker game is going on is of uncertain legality.

Even if someone's intention was *not* to make money from running a tournament, it seems there may still be legal issues surrounding the costs involved in running the tournament.

ScottyZ

Phippo44

Right I agree. That's why the first step in this process would be to have a lawyer do the necessary research re: setting up charitable org's, laws on profits, etc. Of course this necessitates a significant up front cost for this service....although I do have a way around this...I will keep you posted on what happens, I wont say any more for now...

Unknown

i am a poker enthusiast and am getting really frustrated with all the talk about the game being driven out of restaurants/pubs. i have spent a LOT of time trying to get answers regarding the legality of poker and have encountered my fair share of ambiguity and dead ends.

i am not a lawyer, but have been doing a bit of research on the side. the most relevant sections of the criminal code are section 197 (definitions and interpretation for gaming and betting) and section 201 subsection 1 &/or 2.

p.s. remember to vote today!