What's Your Move?

Late in a live $60 deepstack. 16 players started, 7 decent players remain.

Blinds 300/600, 30 min levels
Payouts: top 4... $410/270/180/100

Avg stack: 23,500
Hero (CO): 16,450
Villain (SB): ~23k (has me covered by just over 6k)

Villain has been defending his blinds to single raises 100% of the time. Other than that, a very straight forward player. Bets when he has a hand, or when he senses weakness. On the flop, he seems to bet out if he hits, regardless of position and other players in the hand. He folds to or calls cbets (does not checkraise).

Folded to Hero in CO with KQo who standard raises to 1800 (every opening raise on the table has been to 1800 since 300/600 started 10 mins ago).

SB folds (chip leader, but prefers to be the aggressor), BB calls... as expected.

Flop AA5 rainbow (pot: 3900)

Villain checks. Hero glances at his chips like he wants to bet. Thinks for a bit. Then checks behind.

Turn AA5 2 (pot: 3900)

Villain thinks for a bit, then bets out 2000. Hero quickly calls sensing his K high is good.

River AA5 2 A (pot: 7900)

Villain goes all-in. He has the Hero covered by a bit more than 6k.

You have 12,650 left in chips. What's your move? And why?

/g2

Comments

  • Easy fold. You have air. The blinds aren't ridiculous yet, and you have a great read on the table. You can get your chips back. Live to play another day.

    You said he bets out the flop if he hits, but here he didn't. Did the Aces scare him off his 5? Or did he turn a friggin' deuce?

    Please tell me he had a King (same hand maybe?), or better yet Queen high.
  • g2 wrote: »
    Late in a live $60 deepstack. 16 players started, 7 decent players remain.

    Blinds 300/600, 30 min levels
    Payouts: top 4... $410/270/180/100

    Avg stack: 23,500
    Hero (CO): 16,450
    Villain (SB): ~23k (has me covered by just over 6k)

    Villain has been defending his blinds to single raises 100% of the time. Other than that, a very straight forward player. Bets when he has a hand, or when he senses weakness. On the flop, he seems to bet out if he hits, regardless of position and other players in the hand. He folds to or calls cbets (does not checkraise).

    Folded to Hero in CO with KQo who standard raises to 1800 (every opening raise on the table has been to 1800 since 300/600 started 10 mins ago).

    SB folds (chip leader, but prefers to be the aggressor), BB calls... as expected.

    Flop AA5 rainbow (pot: 3900)

    Villain checks. Hero glances at his chips like he wants to bet. Thinks for a bit. Then checks behind.

    Turn AA5 2 (pot: 3900)

    Villain thinks for a bit, then bets out 2000. Hero quickly calls sensing his K high is good.

    River AA5 2 A (pot: 7900)

    Villain goes all-in. He has the Hero covered by a bit more than 6k.

    You have 12,650 left in chips. What's your move? And why?

    /g2

    If you K was good before the river it's good now... the A changes nothing it's the perfect blank.

    You have the best non-pair hand... but it's a bluff catcher unless he's on absolute air. Your call on the river should have told him you can beat absolute air.

    Fold...
  • If you K was good before the river it's good now... the A changes nothing it's the perfect blank.

    You have the best non-pair hand... but it's a bluff catcher unless he's on absolute air. Your call on the turn should have told him you can beat absolute air.

    Fold...
    My call on the turn tells him I can beat absolute air, so he knows the only way he can win the hand is by betting.

    If he has a piece he's not sure if he has the best hand or not (I could have slow played Ax or a big pair) so he'll probably check-call. If he had anything, he wouldn't bet out. That I am sure of. It's just way too tricky, and this guy was not a tricky player.

    So... knowing that I set him up to bluff off his chips on the river, then do you call?

    /g2
  • Calling here would surely mean there would be 6 players left.... If he is a straightforward player, I am sure you can see he has an ace here, or a high pocket pair.

    No way you could make the call.

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  • g2 wrote: »
    My call on the turn tells him I can beat absolute air, so he knows the only way he can win the hand is by betting.

    If he has a piece he's not sure if he has the best hand or not (I could have slow played Ax or a big pair) so he'll probably check-call. If he had anything, he wouldn't bet out. That I am sure of. It's just way too tricky, and this guy was not a tricky player.

    So... knowing that I set him up to bluff off his chips on the river, then do you call?

    /g2

    He's a straightforward player. But...

    What does he think of you?
    Is he capable of 3rd level thinking?

    So this guy doesn't bet when he has a piece of it.

    Does that mean he bets when he has no hand?

    If that's the case then it's a call for sure.
  • gotta be a fold. he might have slowplayed an Ax but i doubt it. my guess is he's probably got a pocket pair higher than 5 and assumes you didn't hit quads. in any case, you are only beating a Q high. this is a great scenario of reads vs math. i vote math and take the fold. plenty of chips and time left to fight it out. if you believe in your read that much, make the call i guess. however, that's your whole tournament at risk on a pure read.
  • If you thought K high was good on the turn why didn't you pop him. A bet of 5000 here if he has air he folds, he also may fold to a PP figuring you came in with AX and were looking for him to try to commit some chips to the pot.

    At least then when he calls the 3000 you can fold on the river with no questions asked if you miss a K or Q.
  • If you thought K high was good on the turn why didn't you pop him. A bet of 5000 here if he has air he folds, he also may fold to a PP figuring you came in with AX and were looking for him to try to commit some chips to the pot.

    At least then when he calls the 3000 you can fold on the river with no questions asked if you miss a K or Q.

    I have to agree with blackmagicz. I think I would have raised his bet on the turn, although I think I'd raise the flop and take the pot down there.

    On the flop, if he has a med-pair he may fold thinking you have a bigger pair or the ace. If he has the ace you'll find out right then (although you said he doesn't check-raise, so he likely doesn't have the ace). By checking behind him you are giving him a chance to take the lead, if he is holding two unpaired cards, like 10-j, or suited connectors.

    anyway, I think I'd take it down on the flop, and by betting on the flop you are remaining the agressor, you gave him a chance to put you to a big decision.
  • g2 wrote: »
    Late in a live $60 deepstack. 16 players started, 7 decent players remain.


    River AA5 2 A (pot: 7900)

    Villain goes all-in. He has the Hero covered by a bit more than 6k.

    You have 12,650 left in chips. What's your move? And why?

    /g2


    So what'd you do??? What'd he have?
  • CanadaDave wrote: »
    I think I would have raised his bet on the turn, although I think I'd raise the flop and take the pot down there.
    Neither of those are bad ideas, and they'd both probably work. They're also definitely lower variance plays than the one I made.

    But like I said, I purposely flat called the turn to induce a bluff out of him on the river. So my intentions were to call a push on a safe river card. That way I double up and get myself into good position to win the tourney.

    River A... that's the safest card in the deck (besides the other A).

    He pushed right away. I instacalled. He says "you're good" and shows 79o. I flip KQ like its the nuts and rake in the huge pot. The table is shocked for a second, then pretty much everyone says "Wow! Nice call" about 3 times each.

    /g2
  • fold, probably has a better pocket pair. Why risk your tournament on KQ? he may have nothing and is bluffing but you still have plenty of chips left. Same thing happened to me at a tournament at the River Room. Guy went all-in on the river with nothing and I couldn't call because he had me covered and I had ace high and thought I was beat but he had nothing.
  • pokerJAH wrote: »
    fold, probably has a better pocket pair. Why risk your tournament on KQ? he may have nothing and is bluffing but you still have plenty of chips left. Same thing happened to me at a tournament at the River Room. Guy went all-in on the river with nothing and I couldn't call because he had me covered and I had ace high and thought I was beat but he had nothing.
    Here's the philosophy I play poker by. Live or die by your reads. It's high variance of course. You might money less, but you'll win more when you do make the money.

    The situation you decsribe doesn't apply since you thought you were beat. Everyone gets bluffed sometimes. No biggie. But if I think I have the best hand I'm gonna call. It doesn't matter what the size of the pot is, what my cards are, etc.

    "Pick a better spot" sounds to me like you're nursing a short stack for the whole tourney and just trying to tiptoe your way into the money. That's too weak for me. I want to be the chipleader. I don't play scared poker.

    /g2
  • g2 wrote: »
    But like I said, I purposely flat called the turn to induce a bluff out of him on the river. So my intentions were to call a push on a safe river card. That way I double up and get myself into good position to win the tourney.

    River A... that's the safest card in the deck (besides the other A).

    He pushed right away. I instacalled. He says "you're good" and shows 79o. I flip KQ like its the nuts and rake in the huge pot. The table is shocked for a second, then pretty much everyone says "Wow! Nice call" about 3 times each.

    /g2

    The most important point in this thread is that on the turn you felt like you were ahead. The river only improves hands that were already beating you so you have to call again. If a 3 or 4 comes off on the river then you have to re-evaluate because his semi-bluffing hands now beat your hand, but in this case once your read is that he is bluffing and you set your plan of attack, you can't fold the river.

    I likely just cont bet the flop, but for the people who want to raise him on the turn what does that accomplish?
    Are you raising as a bluff? If we're putting him on a bluff what is the purpose of that, he'll just fold any weaker hands but would likely have bluffed again on the river.
    Are you raising KQ high for value? Are there any hands here that call your raise that you actually beat?

    The only reason I can think of for raising here are if you have a fantastic read of this player and know he will call with K4 or K3 or something to try to hit the gutshot but if he's just going to bluff the rest to you if he misses then what is the point? You would probably push him off KQ with a turn raise, but the number of times that happens is insignificant compared to the number of times he bluffs the rest of his chips right into your stack.

    NH. It is definitely a nice feeling to sit at the table and piece together a hand like this, make the correct play and then watch the entire room say you made a sick call/read/whatever.
  • pokerJAH wrote: »
    Guy went all-in on the river with nothing and I couldn't call because he had me covered and I had ace high and thought I was beat but he had nothing.

    If that is the order you use to decide what to do, you are playing very scared poker. If the first 2 statements are true but instead you think you have him beat, do you call? How often do you actually trust your read in those spots?



    NOTE: I am not saying you should have called in this case, I'm just throwing it out there that you don't always have to fold when all you have is A high. Usually it is the right move, but don't be afraid to call sometimes when the play of the hand makes you feel it is good.
  • You have to fold here. I'm going to put him on a mid pair. he didn't bet at it in case you had the ace. In any case, he has you beat. Why call off your tournament life when all you can beat is a stone cold bluff? Save your chips and regroup. Plenty of chips left. You should have bet the turn and missed the chance giving him back the lead. You said he bets straight up right? He may have been afraid of the ace but doesn't have air. 77? :js :jd
  • g2 wrote: »
    Here's the philosophy I play poker by. Live or die by your reads.

    That's why he called.

    And won.

    Nice hand g2!
  • Maybe it's just because I am a less experienced player, but I would probably have re-raised the turn. Not only would it tell me where I stood, but it wouldn't give him a chance to draw at the 6 outs he has left.

    Also, if he does have a middle pair, it might get him out of the hand, winning you a pot with the worst two cards.

    some people would call this scared poker, but I would say that it's better to win a smaller pot than lose a giant one.

    it's just my $0.02, but like I said, I'm no expert :)
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