More tables...or Move up a limit? (SNG Player)
Hey guys,
Have not posted in a while but have been stewing this around in my brain for a few weeks now...
My background: In 2007 so far I have played 400 SNG's and my ROI is 18% at the $5 buy-in level. I am not a high roller yet :-)
Basically, 350 of those SNG's have been played one game at a time, or at most two at a time.
New strategy: At the start of October I set my self a goal of focusing ONLY on $5, 9-man, Non-turbo SNG's (using only FullTilt and Stars equally) - whereas some of my past SNG's were a mix of 6 man, 18 man, HU and sometimes turbos...
With my new strategy I can only four table - so I open 2 FT and 2 Starts games and start them within minutes of each other...
So far, and yes its a small sample size - I have played 55 games and the results have been through the roof. I have an ROI of 63.6%. My goal was to play 100 games using this method and see how well I could do.
My Question: If I can get to 100 games, and still show an ROI above say 40%, is it more generally accepted that you should continue to increase the number of games you play and stay at the same limit - or is it better to double my limit (from $5 to $10 games) and still stay with 4 tables?
Yes, 8 tabling in an of itself would bring my ROI down due to lack of decision making time, but does it bring it down MORE than the amount of ROI you are most likely to lose when you start playing against more skilled players (i.e moving up a limit) ? Just deliberating as to whether I should move from 4 to 5 to 6 etc...to 8 games at the $5 level OR play 4 tables @ the $10 level - either way I am paying $44 per session to play.
Just wondering if people have a general rule of thumb for this, or, what you all have experienced in the past.
Sorry, this was kind of a brain dump...
Cheers.
Have not posted in a while but have been stewing this around in my brain for a few weeks now...
My background: In 2007 so far I have played 400 SNG's and my ROI is 18% at the $5 buy-in level. I am not a high roller yet :-)
Basically, 350 of those SNG's have been played one game at a time, or at most two at a time.
New strategy: At the start of October I set my self a goal of focusing ONLY on $5, 9-man, Non-turbo SNG's (using only FullTilt and Stars equally) - whereas some of my past SNG's were a mix of 6 man, 18 man, HU and sometimes turbos...
With my new strategy I can only four table - so I open 2 FT and 2 Starts games and start them within minutes of each other...
So far, and yes its a small sample size - I have played 55 games and the results have been through the roof. I have an ROI of 63.6%. My goal was to play 100 games using this method and see how well I could do.
My Question: If I can get to 100 games, and still show an ROI above say 40%, is it more generally accepted that you should continue to increase the number of games you play and stay at the same limit - or is it better to double my limit (from $5 to $10 games) and still stay with 4 tables?
Yes, 8 tabling in an of itself would bring my ROI down due to lack of decision making time, but does it bring it down MORE than the amount of ROI you are most likely to lose when you start playing against more skilled players (i.e moving up a limit) ? Just deliberating as to whether I should move from 4 to 5 to 6 etc...to 8 games at the $5 level OR play 4 tables @ the $10 level - either way I am paying $44 per session to play.
Just wondering if people have a general rule of thumb for this, or, what you all have experienced in the past.
Sorry, this was kind of a brain dump...
Cheers.
Comments
Personally, my ROI takes a huge hit if I do more than 2 tables. I find I just can't concentrate enough to have more than that going on at any one time, and my play suffers for it.
Be interesting to see how your analysis ferrets out Nutz after awhile. To answer your question, should you open MORE tables or move up, from my limited experience multi tabling, it would be a coin flip on the impact on your ROI. Would like to know how you do after awhile.
BTW, welcome back...hope to hear from you more often.
I have found 4 tabling interesting but I can manage it - it gets particularly rough when I am 4 handed or less at all four tables...also, HU at two or more tables at once gives me an ulcer...so Im not sure how 8 tables would make me feel.
I will try to remember to post my stats once I get to 100 games. Also, I will update on if I am going to try adding one game at a time, or just move up a limit and track it...or both(?) too many god damn choices!
If you are killing the $5, you won't find $10 much harder.
Also I would stagger the start times. Every time the blinds go up, start a new sng. Otherwise you may find yourself hu on 4 tables simultaneously, which is a bit hectic.
moose makes a good point about staggering the start times.
I think more important is your bank roll. It's not about having $44 in play at any time session. It's whether you can weather a bad streak where you don't cash in 20 sng's in a row.
You are really asking two questions.
1. Move up or not.
2. Increase # of tables or not
1. depends on your bankroll
2. you need to experiment adding/removing tables and keep detailed records to figure out your $$/hr. I don't think ROI % is as important here. For multi tablers, how much you make per hour is the biggest factor.
Yes, good point about start staggering...have to start doing that.
Also, very true about there being an upper max on how many tables you can actually play at once vs the option of just moving up the limits. I was just trying to see if there was someone out there that finds greater success multi tabling a lower limit than playing less games at a higher limit in terms of $/hr (I guess that is a better gauge if you are just trying to increase your BR)
So what is considered a good # of games to have played before you can, with more certainty, say that you are ready to move up in limits? 1000?
Also, I feel like if you ever do not cash for 20 SNG's as you say, then something is wrong with the level you are playing at <you are playing up too high> (at least at the low limits I play) - I do suppose, that if I were playing $1000 sng's that I could have a 2% ROI and still be happy with the money I would be able to pull in per month (or $/hr to be more accurate)
There may be a bit of an adjustment period as you move to a new level but really you see much of a difference between $5 and $10.
If you are that worried, play 2 $5 and 2 $10. That will smooth out a bit of your variance should you experience a drop at the $10 level.
Solid question. Three points I would like to touch on:
1. Levels - With the $5.50's vs $11's the difference in competition will be so small that Your profit should really double without changing anything. I would move up immediately as long as you are rolled for it.
2. Sets vs Continual - Totally a matter of preference but I almost always played in sets because it maximizes your per hour return. You can fire up 4 SNG's you can play them all in an hour. If you stagger them by 15 min you will double your time logged on in order to play the same # of games.
I also like playing in sets because M's and stack size decisions are made easier when the levels in all of your tournies remain consistent.
It is difficult when you get 4 tables Heads-Up but just remember not to rush and use your time bank to make good decisions. The added value here is when you take your time to make HU decisions you will often tilt your opponent at these stakes.
3. Don't be afraid to play turbo's (stars levels are playable...some other sites are not). You often see worse players in the turbo's and if you are solid at pushbotting you can easily overcome the shorter levels.
Good Luck at the tables.
When I multi-table I its usually no more than 2. At 3 tables it usually means I am ending one and beginning another and just overlapping. With 4 or more I would specifically reccomend that you have software that can track VPIP, PFR, WSD%, and WSDW%. Tournament Indicator has an MZone calculation too and is great for sit and go tournaments.
Bottom line is if your bankroll is moving up, AND your hourly rate is good, stick with your level until you get as comfortable as you can with multi-tabling and have a system in place. Then experiment with higher levels while keeping a VERY close watch on your hourly rate. Poker charts can help you with that too.
Good luck and great playing so far!
= W$SD% ?
not sure
Went to Show Down Winning percentage, generally reflects if you know the true value of your hole cards and/or if you are a calling station (elephant).
Yes, 1000 minimum is a good start. 55 games could just be a heater.
IMO, not cashing in 20 sng's in a row is just your standard variance (bad run) and nothing to do with playing in the wrong level. Ok, now that I think about it more...maybe 20 is a bit much but 12-15 is definitely understandable.
Yes, 55 games tells you nothing. I was not intending to infer that because of these 55 games I should move up limits. It's that over 400 games this year, I'm over 18% ROI, so I think that stat should be sufficient for me to move up (if my bankroll says I can move up...which it does) - but I guess I can't say unequivocally that I am a "good" low limit SNG player until I reach 1000 games and still have an ROI above say 17% (which is what I read on 2+2 was considered the ROI for top players at the $5 level).
Thanks for your comments man.
Still, I am on my "October SNG Mission" to play 100 games, 4 tabling only - the month is running out and I am only at 65 games but I should get there. After that, I am going to try 4 tabling the $10 SNGs, which, I already have the BR to support if things go down the tube ;-)
Also, I did try one session where I staggered the start times of 2 of my games till one blind level was over in the other 2. I found this harder in fact, since I was having to always re-gather key information (level, stack size, initial raise amount...) on each table rather than knowing what I should be doing on ALL tables at each level of the SNG - but, that might just be me and how my brain works. I have never got HU on all 4, just 3 once, and I won all 3 so I guess I can handle it on the rare occasions when it comes up - the key is as one poster said, using your time bank and thinking through each hand and not panicking.
The site I look at once in a while is www.sharkscope.com
but it mixes in 18/45/90 player fixed MTT's as "SNG's" so its not strictly "single table".
So how do you see these stats in FullTilt you speak of?
I finished my goal of doing 100 SNG's - only 4 tabling each time, at the $5 level.
It took less than a month (played 16 actual days, spread out over the month)
Here are the results.
# games = 100
Total Profit = $318.50
Profit/SNG = $3.19
ROI = 57.9%
1st's = 22
2nd's= 15
3rd's= 19
Bubble's = 10
ITM% = 56%
I ended up with 56 games on FT and 44 on Stars. I had a higher profit at Stars ($181.00) than on FT ($137.50) despite playing less games there....guess I should play on Stars more ;-)
I have now started my next 100 SNG challenge but this time I am going to do all $10 SNGs. Players seem to be more conservative so far, obv they are better - will be interesting to see how the ROI does this time around.
Have you read Moshman's book? Highly recommended.
Im still going to have to give staggered more of a chance. Would be nice to not feel so much panic when I am playing multiple HU or v.short handed at same time.
No. What is this book called? Where can I get it? Let me know. Thanks !
You can read my review of that book here if it helps.
Hey thanks Marty. I read your review. I did recognize his name from 2+2 from waaaay back I remember seeing it around there.
I have suggested to my girlfriend to by it for me for x-mas or B-day comin up.
I am keeping up with my promises and posting my results. I have now finished my 100 SNG challenge at the $10 level.
Here are the results.
Buy-in: $10 + 1 (70 games on Stars, 30 on Full Tilt)
# games = 100
Total Profit = $421.00
Profit/SNG = $4.21
ROI = 38.27%
1st's = 21
2nd's= 14
3rd's= 11
Bubble's = 10
ITM% = 46%
First note: I notice I make so much more money on Stars vs Full Tilt, that I am now playing 100% of my SNGs there. Anyone else notice this huge difference between the sites and the caliber of players at the same limits???
Despite the advice, I am still starting all 4 games at once. Somehow I am still comfortable with this, but am noticing that I am very stressed at HU on 3 tables at once (when it happens) so I may try the staggered start thing still.
My ROI dropped a lot from $5 to $10 and I did notice the players were better - but there are still a TON of donks particularity on Stars.
I have started reading Moshmans book - so far so good interesting to get inside the mind of a guy who has played so much more than me and has done so well.
I am trying to figure out how many buy-ins I want to have in my roll before moving up levels in SNG's but the advice is all over the place! Seems that if you are going to do SNG's as a "pro" or for a living lets say, you should have at least 100 buy ins, if you are just playing for fun and dont care if you lose your whole roll you could have as low as 10-20 buy ins. So I am shooting in the middle - to have 75 buy-ins before I move up to the next limit. I am going to play another 100 $10 SNGs and if that goes well I will have enough to move up to the $22 SNGs.
I am wondering what to expect at the $22 level. As of this writing I use NO software to track stats (poker tracker) and I do not have a subscription to sharkscope either - basically, I am playing my opponents blind and am wondering at what level of SNG it becomes "worth it" to purchase these tools to gain an even bigger edge.
I am done blabbing.
Oh, and based on my stats should I move up to the $22's when my roll says I can, I know ppl will say the sample size is too low, but lets say it was repeatable (which I believe it is) is my ROI high enough? What are top players getting for ROI's at the $10 and $20 levels?
First of all I'm not sure it is the players that are different. I tend to believe that it is the structure that makes the difference. Out of the sites that I play Stars has the best structure for patient, skilled players. Players that play more of a pushbot type style can do better on sites that have shorter stacks and quicker blinds.
As far as moving up, you haven't shown any evidence that you can't handle higher limits. Again, I admire your patience. Why don't you try a stab at 22s rather than continuing to grind out 11s? If you had say 50 buyins for 11s (ie $550) left in your roll, you probably could recover and rebuild. If you have say 25 buyins for 22s over the $550, (ie you have $1100 in your roll), why not play them out and see what happens? If you sit down at 2 tables simultaneously, you are putting the same money at risk as sitting at 4 lower buyins and your concentration will be better. If you run bad and drop to $550, drop back down to 11s and rebuild.
For me, Sharkscope only very rarely helps me. It does not matter to me how successful a sng player someone is, as long as I feel I can beat them. Obviously you don't want to sit down at a table filled with sharks. However, it's value for Stars I feel is limited since the sngs fill so quickly. By the time you have checked out the names of 2 or 3 players, the sng fills anyways. I wish Stars would show the table as it fills for a couple of reasons.
1. you can negate some tougher players by having good table position on them.
2. you can read any player notes you may have on them before you sit down.
Right now, there is no way of checking your player notes before the sng fills and no way to control where you sit on the table.
PT pays for itself the first time you use it to influence your decision making process and it makes the difference between ITM or not. Waiting for the roll before buying it, makes no sense. As I said, grinding it out at low limits takes time, a hell of a lot of time. The more time you can save at the low limits to eventually get to your comfort level the better. If PT gets you there faster, then it is worth every penny.
you make some good points about sharkscope and stars games filling so fast, however, I have used it a few times to make calls for my tournament life - when someone makes a move I think is strange - if I see they are a -50% ROI donkaholic, I click call and it works almost every time.
However, I suppose I might be able to make those same calls with PT by just using different numbers combined with notes.
I may take a shot at the $22s, as you say if I knock down to 2 tables I am wagering the same amount as 4 $11's - but it does make me a bit nervous since I feel some of the success I have been having is due to the fact that I am 4 tabling and don't ever feel the urge to "get in a hand" because there is really too much shit going on and I have no chance to allow myself to get out of line!
Also you are right, I should not really treat the next level like its a big deal, I should just try it out and if it goes like shit, I'll just drop back to where I know I can make money - which I have no issue doing.
Cheers.
Gives me some good pointers as I feel I need to practice my SNG alot more (since I really suck at poker) so... I'll try to start some objective myself and see how it goes .. backstory :
Started with 30 bucks, 4 tabling turbos on starts (6 players one - 3.25$ buy-in) went up to 65 then dropped back to 50 rather rapidly ... I realised I was playing too high buyins for my BR since a couple of bad runs would put me out of business.
So... starting now (I'm at 50.40$) I'll 4 tables the 1.20$ 9 player sng non-turbo on stars until I reach at least 275$ (50 buy-ins at 5.50$ 9 players)
It'll take a couple years to get to 275 since first place is 4.50$ 225/3.40 = 66 wins without losses (which isn't going to happend, obiviously...)
Anyways... once I reach (if I reach) 275 I'll post my "results" hehe
I don't think there's any advice one can give at that level... players are horrible most of the time. :P
Also get a heads up display like PAHud.
Also, add more tables because 8 tabling is really not hard.
Ryan