The art of the laydown.
These three hands are from a small buy-in 'for fun' single-table NL tourney I played over the weekend. The majority of my opponents were either fairly inexperienced, or very inexperienced, which is why it was 'for fun'. Fun or not, I still found myself put to three decisions that I thought were pretty tough. Which of these hands are easy laydowns, if any?
I chose not to mention chips counts, because I felt that would give away what I chose to do for hands #2 and #3. I wouldn’t consider myself or my opponents to be pot-committed in any of these hands, unless I mention otherwise. Also, there were rebuys, and these were all still in the rebuy period.
Assume my opponents are fairly straightforward (ie: not particularly aggressive or passive) unless I mention anything about anyone in particular.
Hand #1
50/100. I'm the BB, and I am dealt 9h 5c. A few limpers, SB completes, I check.
Flop: Kh 9d 5c.
SB bets 100. I make it 300. Folded to the button (he has me just barely covered) who moves all-in. SB thinks and thinks and thinks, and then calls all-in, just short. I am not pot-committed. Call or fold?
Hand #2
75/150. I'm MP, and I'm dealt Ad Td. Folded to me, and I just double the blinds. (Weak, I know, but that seemed to be the 'standard' pre-flop raise, and it was a friendly game, blah blah blah... weak, I know.) Anywho, I double the blinds, and only LP and the button call.
Flop: Th 8c 7d.
I check with the intention of raising, LP bets 500, and the button calls. Calling would almost make me pot-committed, but not quite, so it's an option, albeit a bad one IMHO. Call, raise, or fold? (An all-in raise from me would be big enough to have meaning to both of these players, and neither were pot-committed.)
One thing of note: LP is a big bluffer. He loves to bluff, a lot, and I've seen him show down a few. Everyone at the table has noticed this.
Hand #3
I'm LP with As 9s, still at the 75/150 level. Folded to me and I double the blinds. Only the button (the LP 'bluffer' from hand #2) calls.
Flop: Ac Qd 3s.
I intend to check-raise him, but before I say 'check', he says check. I say, 'actually it's me first'. Now I know my check-raise won't work, but being the honest guy that I am, I check anyways, because that's what I intended to do before he checked out of turn. He's new, so I took it to be the honest mistake that it most likely was. Besides, I figured I'd pop him on the turn.
Turn: Tc.
I bet 300, and he moves in. He has me covered, and I'm not pot-committed. Call or fold?
Any comments appreciated.
Regards,
all_aces
I chose not to mention chips counts, because I felt that would give away what I chose to do for hands #2 and #3. I wouldn’t consider myself or my opponents to be pot-committed in any of these hands, unless I mention otherwise. Also, there were rebuys, and these were all still in the rebuy period.
Assume my opponents are fairly straightforward (ie: not particularly aggressive or passive) unless I mention anything about anyone in particular.
Hand #1
50/100. I'm the BB, and I am dealt 9h 5c. A few limpers, SB completes, I check.
Flop: Kh 9d 5c.
SB bets 100. I make it 300. Folded to the button (he has me just barely covered) who moves all-in. SB thinks and thinks and thinks, and then calls all-in, just short. I am not pot-committed. Call or fold?
Hand #2
75/150. I'm MP, and I'm dealt Ad Td. Folded to me, and I just double the blinds. (Weak, I know, but that seemed to be the 'standard' pre-flop raise, and it was a friendly game, blah blah blah... weak, I know.) Anywho, I double the blinds, and only LP and the button call.
Flop: Th 8c 7d.
I check with the intention of raising, LP bets 500, and the button calls. Calling would almost make me pot-committed, but not quite, so it's an option, albeit a bad one IMHO. Call, raise, or fold? (An all-in raise from me would be big enough to have meaning to both of these players, and neither were pot-committed.)
One thing of note: LP is a big bluffer. He loves to bluff, a lot, and I've seen him show down a few. Everyone at the table has noticed this.
Hand #3
I'm LP with As 9s, still at the 75/150 level. Folded to me and I double the blinds. Only the button (the LP 'bluffer' from hand #2) calls.
Flop: Ac Qd 3s.
I intend to check-raise him, but before I say 'check', he says check. I say, 'actually it's me first'. Now I know my check-raise won't work, but being the honest guy that I am, I check anyways, because that's what I intended to do before he checked out of turn. He's new, so I took it to be the honest mistake that it most likely was. Besides, I figured I'd pop him on the turn.
Turn: Tc.
I bet 300, and he moves in. He has me covered, and I'm not pot-committed. Call or fold?
Any comments appreciated.
Regards,
all_aces
Comments
Hand Two: Tough call here...as $500 smells like a set or straight. Hard to say without seeing how they played other hands. But I push here with possibly the best hand. Since an All-In would be a meaningful raise you may even push someone off a set (but not likely).
Hand Three: Sounds like a classic inexperianced play of a HUGE hand. They wanted to check-raise you so bad (probably because you have been check raising them) they went out of turn. I think it is an easy fold.
That all being said I am probably off in all accounts. Let me know what happened!
Jamie.
I'm not very artistic, so I'm moving in all of my chips in each of the spots you described. In #1 because I simply think I have the best hand and my opponents are probably drawing to a combined (or partially combined) 5-out/8-out draw. Stack size *does* matter here. In the opponent moves all-in for 10,000 more over top of the 300, there's no way in h-e-double hockey sticks that I call.
In #2 and #3 I'll make a stand any day with these hands against an excessive bluffer during the re-buy period. Being the re-buy period does two excellent things for me:
1. It lets me put my chips at far more risk than usual is what might be marginal situations.
2. It might (though I doubt it) send a message to the bluffer that I'm not a player who is easily bluffed. I would be much more apt to do this if I had the opinion that the bluffer was, in addition, a good player.
ScottyZ
Sorry, I should have realized that I can give details about stacks in hand #1, and that won't 'give anything away' for #2 and #3.
I had about 1600 to start the hand. The button had just under 2K, and the SB had about 1400.
Cheers,
all_aces
I would call. I would find it hard to lay down 2 pair, on the flop. Plus since it is a rebuy I would feel that this would be a good hand to triple up on, and if not rebuy and try again. Button maybe has King medium kicker and is trying to win the pot right there. SB has king weak kicker and thinks his king might win it or he is on an inside straight draw.
Call or Fold (I would call and see the turn). Ten Ace kicker is great but the button is probably on a draw (open end straight) or has a made straight perhaps (unlikely but his quiet call would have me concerned). If a 4 cards to the straight hits check and fold. Otherwise here is the point I would push all in. It's rebuy after all, of course if you are called and lose here someone almost certainly becomes a monster in chips I imagine.
Fold, Fold, Fold. His quick check and inexperienced screams (to me anyhow) Monster, 2 pair or a set.
Okay, I'll stick with moving all-in then.
I hate to be a nitpicking Nelly (who am I kidding, I love being a nitpicking Nelly) but I think the re-buy $-amount and T-chip amounts matter too. Though my play doesn't change assuming that 1,600 is in the ballpark of the re-buy T-chip amount.
If you can only re-buy to T-500, I'd give more thought to folding here. But probably would not. :cool:
ScottyZ
I knew you'd want more info., but if, for example, I post that I have 1500 in the first hand, 3000 in the second, and 750 in the third (or whatever), then I feel I'd be giving too much away. The suspense. Oh, the suspense.
The thread title was my lame attempt at cleverness, referencing Trump's book 'The Art of the Deal'. You ask why? I say 'hmm... not sure'. But speaking of The Apprentice, I can't believe what a moron Brandon was for forfeiting his immunity. Trump was totally right to fire his ass.
Great replies so far.
Regards,
all_aces
Nah... that doesn't give too much away.
Oh yeah, change my answers to Call, Fold, Fold.
ScottyZ
Thank god I am not the only person who has been sucked into that show.
I simply could not watch it. I couldn't stop staring at the "hair".
And what's with that female Vice-Trump (or whatever you call it) from last season? Is she back? IMO, this represents a great step forwards for the Android Actors' Guild.
If they put Trump's "hair" on that robot, *now* you've got the makings of a quality television program.
ScottyZ
Regards,
all_aces
LOL
Some people are passive-aggressive. She/it is pretty much passive-passive-passive-passive.
Don't you see my point about how good she would be with the "hair"?
I'm glad to see you've got no qualms about *androids* being in a reality show. As long as they are naturally occurring in reality I suppose.
ScottyZ
Now then. I'm the guy who dragged this thread WAAAAY off-topic, so I'll be the guy who tries to drag it back.
Hand #1: Call or fold?
Hand #2: Call, raise, or fold?
Hand #3: Call or fold?
Regards,
all_aces
#2 Revisited
I think with you having 3,000 in chips, which is *well* above the "rebuy to" level of 750, I like folding here.
Being so far in chips above the rebuy limit, I'm going to start playing more like the rebuy period is over for me (yet, still aware that my opponents may be in rebuy-loose mode).
I like *calling* pre-flop with the ATs (and you thought raising the minimum was weak...). I would fold on that flop. You may very well have the best hand, but I don't like overcalling the button with only top pair on a draw happy board. (To be honest, I failed to notice the extra player in for the 500 flop bet the first time I read #2.)
This is along the lines of "sometimes folding the best hand", even *if* the button doesn't have the strength he is showing by flat calling (instead of raising to shut you out) the crazy bluff guy.
ScottyZ
Regardless, I wasn't pot-committed after my preflop raise, and neither were either of the other players who were in for 500, so your points are all definitely valid ones.
Regards,
all_aces
Okay, for hand #2, I fold if my stack is around 1,500 or more at the decision point. I'd use roughly the same guideline for hand #3.
I guess it was clouding my judgement that you said you were in a re-buy period. But I have a hard time even thinking of it as a re-buy period when the re-buy is to 750 chips during a 75/150 blind level. Re-buy to smaller than a 6*BB stack? No thanks.*
On hand #1, I simply think your hand is too good, re-buy period or not. I'm all-in in hand #1.
ScottyZ
*Generally, I would actually re-buy, but I am not going to base my current plays on the usual relative safety of busting out during a re-buy period.
I know you are trying not to give the answers away, and the fact that you and your opponents are not pot-committed is *some* information. But facing a $500 bet, it's going to matter if I have $2,000 in chips active in the hand, or $5,000.
ScottyZ
This isn't exactly the case, but it's close enough for all of these hands.
Cheers,
all_aces
The button moves all-in, depending on his experience level could be anything from Kx to trips or two pair.
The "into the tank" from the SB is the worrisome part here, and the only questions you need answered is "Does this person watch the WPT?" If the answer is yes, I may have to put him on a pair of Kings as he's attempting to pull an acting job. If he doesn't watch it and the tank seems real, then the only hand I can really put him in is a gutshot straight draw.
Although, with bad players you never know, I have a friend that plays that claims he "drawing" to a straight if his hand is A8 and the board shows 672. Argh.
Bottom two pair always seems to do bad things to me, so IO'd be inclined to fold. (Though, the opportunity to almost triple-up here, esp, in a rebuy tournament is very tempting.)
Oh, and since I love guessing what other people have (and I still REALLY suck at it, here's what I'm putting people on)
Button: KQo
SB: KK (if yes on WPT), QJ if no.
Hand 2: So, this is a bet of 500 into a pot worth 900? I think the question here is, how does the LP usually bluff? What portion of the pot does he bet with. (I've seen both; a player bets too much to force people out, or people that bet too small because their scared of bluffing and don't want to fully commit to it.) My gut says raise all-in. If you call here and are pot commited, you're going to have a similar choice to make on the turn.
LP: A6
Button: QT
Hand 3: I agree with others on this one. If it's the bluffer from question 1, I find it interesting that he'd lead out with a check.. a check from a blulffer often means they hit something big. Bluffer's will call any Ace pre-flop (and, my friend above will often raise any Ace in any position... sigh), so, I'd fold because...
Button: A3
but i still think you are going to lose hand #1 if you call....no reasonable draws out there, and the other 2 players are taking big action...i guess if you really think they are bad enough to play Kx and gutshot, respectively, then go for it....but i think one of them has you beat with K9 or a set
#2 is a fold as well...str8 draw on board...again, 2 players taking big action...you are going to be playing for all your chips with TPTK....against one person, maybe its a call...but against 2? no way....someone has str8 or 2 pair or set, most likely the button.....hard to beat a bluffer with someone else cold-calling
#3 i'd actually be more inclined to call (going against everyone else again)...for once, its headsup, and its against a habitual bluffer...there is a decent chance you are beat, but also a decent chance he picked up a draw...is this guy willing to raise all-in on a draw? i'm guessing yes......but you did show weakness on the flop after raising preflop, so i wouldn't put it past him to try and steal....especially if he knows he can rebuy
But I then reconsidered again mostly because of the level of blinds. If he doesn't have a hand you are golden and an odds on favorite to win. however should he have a hand or a decent draw and you lose he becomes an agressive wild card bluffing monster with chips (dangerous and fun
Let the fish re-buy there will be other better opportunities to win money off of this player later on. Since inevitbly you will get a hand that he will try and bluff and pay you off anyhow at a future date.
I am very interest in what really happened now. Good post Aces.
We were using my blind structure & rules, which I freely admit gives good players an edge. Not only is it a very gradual blind structure, you can also rebuy for T750 all the way up to the 7th level, which is 100/200. Personally, I wouldn't rebuy at the 100/200 level, unless the circumstances were extraordinary... ie: one player has practically ALL of the chips, and the only other 2 players have less than 750. The money for second, or even third, would usually justify a 750 rebuy in this case. Most times, however, I wouldn't rebuy, but I do leave that option open in case I'm lucky enough to be playing with somebody who wants to pay $50 (usually the rebuy amount, though not in this particular tourney) for T750 at the 100/200 level.
Regards,
all_aces
No standing at:
Hand 1: Call
Hand 2: Fold
Hand 3: Fold
Jamie.
I actually did manange to lay this one down. The button really really looked like he wanted me to call, and I was in the tank for a good minute or two. I never got the feeling even once that he wanted me to fold. So, it seemed a little far-fetched to put him on 99, 55, or K9, but that's what I did, so I folded. The button had K9o, SB had KQ, and the button won the hand.
Deep into the tank again on this one. Poker shouldn't be this hard. If I re-raise all-in it'll be about another 1300 or so to each of them to call (I had around 1800 at the decision point). I eventually decided that LP was full of it, and that the button thought he was full of it too, and was calling with a marginal hand. So, I re-raised all-in, and LP called me in a heartbeat. The button folded, and LP showed me J9o for the flopped straight. He had me covered.... REBUY!
I called, after yet another trip into the tank. This was a pretty short trip though... I thought (yet again) that I had the best hand. As it turned out, he had JKo, and had turned the nut straight. Of course, he had me covered... REBUY!
So, the results would dictate that the 'correct' plays would have been: fold, fold, and fold. I can't make that many artistic laydowns. I don't have it in me. Apparently, the first one met my 'laydown' quota for the entire tournament.
In the third hand, I should have bet the flop. In the second hand, I should have let my opponents battle it out, and saved my 1800 or so for a less volatile spot. As for the bluffer, well, every time I went up against him, surprise surprise, he wasn't bluffing! I did not finish in the money in this 'for fun' tournament. My girlfriend did. :banghead:
Regards,
all_aces
Woohoo!
My guess is that she's the crazy LP bluffer, and she put you on so much tilt on hand number 3 that you couldn't stop thinking to yourself for the rest of the tournament: "I'm sure going to post about this nutty play on the forum...".
Also, I'm sure you know this, but remember that the results are not at all any kind of "correct answers".
I still like
1. Call
2. Close decision, but Fold
3. Fold
ScottyZ
I completely agree with this. An out of turn play by an inexperienced player is far more likely to be the player not knowing who's turn it is rather than angle-shooting.
ScottyZ
I this case I believe that the player had big hand and very much was wanting to check raise it. So much so that they did it out of turn.
Jamie.
As it may be. I still would have folded that hand on #3. I simply do not like calling for all my chips at that stage of the tournament, with a pair of A's and a nine kicker. There will be better hands to play and win chips off of this player.
Agreed.
Well, I see what you're saying. It's certainly possible for a beginner to panic on hitting a big hand, and do things like play out of turn.
However, I'll still generally go with the simpler explanation of the beginner having nothing. The way I think of it is that an (otherwise unknown) inexperienced player would probably be prone to checking out of turn in *either* of these cases. It's more likely for him to have nothing than a hand which is big enough to go for a check-raise with.
Occam's Razor is a good weapon to use against inexperienced players.
ScottyZ
What's occam's razor exactly?