Absolute Poker Warning
Hey all,
I'm new to this forum, but i've been reading 2+2 for years.
I just thought I warn everyone about the possible cheating going on a Absolute Poker. Before I post the link, I want to clarify I am not an "online poker is rigged" conspiracy theorist. I believe online poker is 99% ligitimate, and I play on Stars, FTP and UB. The claims also come from very reputable posters and higher stakes winning players.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12127403&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
This is an isolated incident on Absolute.
Although it's not 100% proof, after reading the hand histories and poker tracker stats, i'm becoming more convinced.
I'm new to this forum, but i've been reading 2+2 for years.
I just thought I warn everyone about the possible cheating going on a Absolute Poker. Before I post the link, I want to clarify I am not an "online poker is rigged" conspiracy theorist. I believe online poker is 99% ligitimate, and I play on Stars, FTP and UB. The claims also come from very reputable posters and higher stakes winning players.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12127403&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
This is an isolated incident on Absolute.
Although it's not 100% proof, after reading the hand histories and poker tracker stats, i'm becoming more convinced.
Comments
It'll be interesting to see what happens and if it marks the end of on-line poker as we know it. At some point in the system, you have to trust a stranger. That just doesn't scale when this much money is at stake in an unregulated industry.
I can see the beginning of the end for it personally. The "trust factor" is completely shot to hell now. Be interesting to see how they are going to respond to this and what actions they are going to invoke because of it.
Also, ironically whether true or not this pretty much shows why the "online poker is rigged" believers truly do not get it in the sense that if and when something odd happens there is a very good chance people will notice and will have the tools to offer some fairly powerful evidence. Same happened with bots on Full Tilt.
Given the process and aftermath that is taking place at Absolute now, what it pretty much ironically proves is online poker is not rigged (again speaking about major/medium size sites).
http://news.parttimepoker.com/2007/09/16/rumors-continue-to-circulate-regarding-suspicious-play-at-absolute-poker/
If absolute won't even respect Brian from casinomeister, it's time to cashout and stay as far away as possible until this is adequately resolved.
Methinks there maybe some internal security concerns being raised at AP right about now.
If Abs writes all the hands that players hold first, before action takes place, then they read that..
I hope none of this is going on at any other sites..
Again, one of the biggest resources all of these sites have are their player base for detecting when something is not right. I am not talking about a guy whining because he got 3 outed twice in a $1 sit and go and screams the site is rigged against him (which greatly fails the common sense test). More the patterns of behavior in others that an adequate hand history sample can prove.
Only once have I reported what really seemed like very very strange betting in a sit and go between two people on Stars. The large chip guy between them would always fold to a min river bet even when that bet was 5% of the pot. I reported it and indeed Pokerstars looked into it, determined they were colluding and redistributed the prizes accordingly and prevented them from joining the same events ever again.
That's why a lot of these things will get caught - other players will notice them. Certainly not all cheating, but a chunk of it and the pressure has to be put on the sites to act accordingly.
Stars is pretty good about that. Full Tilt confiscated a ton of money from bots and redistributed it to other players who played against the bots. Hopefully Absolute will look into their situation and be open about the outcomes as well.
In the end it is up to the customer to decide how important these issues are to them and play at the sites that meet their needs in that regard.
I do not believe the doom and gloom end of the world believers which pop up with every issue (Neteller booting people, the US laws, etc). Too much money is at stake for it all to be casually destroyed, the sites will fight hard for that not to happen and frankly most poker players will play still regardless. Even government regulation would not completely solve the problem - certainly equivalent abuses occur all the time in heavily regulated industries as well.
The emotion will cool down and hopefully we will see some constructive and proactive progress made by the major sites to endure confidence in the games they provide.
Imagine if in 1 month, online poker cheating was everywhere, and people would be unable to play.. that would change alot of lives :O
If they could see hole cards don't be playing the high stakes cash games.
Why get rich quick overnight, and become redflagged when you play 193 hands and your already making 6 figures!
Take your time boys, play the lower limits be stealth in fact get a group together and be stealth together! Just lay low and play the small stakes!
But regardless, this is wrong in every way. And you know what that means?
Absolutepoker will put these guys on the payroll and they will be the new faces for the security team. As with any true hacker....ie. 17 year old iPhone Hacker
AP better get their act together and resolve this. I can predict that anyone with $$ in AP is going to bail just as quickly as they can.
Did you read the link I posted AJ as there are other links in there with AP's replies?
If some one is doing this I think it would have to be done on the server, I don't think some one could hack their client to see the hole cards of others, but if they had some kind of access to the server then they could, muck like BBC Z pointed out.
In all honesty, I did not read all the links that were in the one you offered Chris, so I did not see any AP responses, other than the ones posted in the original link where they stated they found no concerns with the play of this account.
1) Their developers really messed up and somehow introduced an exploit which their audit team missed.
2) Someone high up on the inside purposely put in an exploit.
If it's option 1, the industry takes a hit (after this many years, there is no excuse for it). If it's option 2, the industry dies because too many people will never be able to trust poker sites. Online poker requires that users know that other users can't see their hole cards.
My best guess is that those clients were given the other clients' keys which allowed them to intercept and see their hole cards. If the exploit had anything to do with AP's server, then they might as well shut down now because those should've been locked up tighter than Fort Knox.
I would guess that's why AP has got their head in the sand. They're between a rock and a hard place. If it was an accident, that's one thing but if it was on purpose that's really, really bad and they just can't come out and say it.
[edit]
Now that I have had more time to read through everything and give it more careful consideration, I still stand behind my "man on the inside" theory but I think the industry will survive the storm. I don't expect AP to ever come out with an official statement because that would be suicide.
Security systems are only as secure as the people in charge of them and it was inevitable that this would eventually happen. There's always been the risk of cheating and I think this incident will force the online poker sites to improve their security processes.
[/edit]
This is third hand, obviously, but I've read just about everything posted on 2+2 about this since Saturday and my understanding is that AP hasn't officially responded yet. The email referenced in your link and often in other places from a "Danielle" is from an affiliate manager. She is not an official AP spokesperson.
Their silence combined with some previous shadiness is particularly damning, of incompetence if nothing so underhanded as collusion.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12523924&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1
It's a summary of what has gone on. But, bonuswhores.com has blacklisted Absolute and PocketFives has dropped all advertising from Absolute.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=0&Number=12523179&page=0&vc=1
Be very interesting to see what, if anything, AP is going to do or say about their investigation.
363 Forever!!
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/17/the-absolute-poker-cheating-scandal-blown-wide-open/
http://www.natarem.com/
The Kahnawake Gaming Commission (KGC) announced today an audit into the current and historic activities of Absolute Poker and interaction with its gaming and financial systems. As a KGC licence holder Absolute Poker is obliged to adhere to the Regulations Concerning Interactive Gaming.
Absolute Poker has agreed to fully cooperate with the KGC and / or its agents.
Mr David Montour, the Commission’s Chairman, said, “This week allegations of impropriety have been bought to the attention of the Kahnawá:ke Gaming Commission. We have appointed experts to conduct a thorough audit of all circumstances, provide findings and recommendations to the Commission. The audit will not be restricted to examining theories circulating in Internet chat rooms and fora”.
The Commission has instructed Gaming Associates to conduct the audit and report to the Commission. Gaming Associates is acknowledged world wide as an expert interactive gaming test and audit house – accredited by regulators worldwide. Gaming Associates’ consultants are pioneers in interactive gaming regulation - recognized as experts in this field since the 1990s, and information security experts.
“It is essential that all online gaming and wagering is conducted in a fair and honest manner where customers are protected. The Kahnawá:ke Gaming Commission is committed to ensuring fair and honest gaming. Nevertheless, it is important that we, as a Commission, act on findings and not allegations alone.” Click HERE for official press release.
Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake
17 October, 2007
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=12554106&an=0&page=0#Post12554106