Follow Up to the Seven Charged
Here is the email address to the Toronto Sun. For those who are interested in starting an email campaigning. All opinions are needed to have this issue looked at in a serious manor.
editor@tor.sunpub.com
Prophet :2h :2s
editor@tor.sunpub.com
Prophet :2h :2s
Comments
They knew it was illegal and didn't care. If people didn't see this coming they need to remove the 45 cataracts they have in their eyes.
Just my 2 cents.
This generation has a chance to make a difference the way our government thinks.
In the early 1900s’ up until the late 40’s alcohol was illegal to serve in public establishments. The people put political pressure on the politicians of the time and eventually the law was abolish.
Steven Truscott was to be hanged in this country as a 14 year old boy for the rape and murder of 12 year old Lynn Harper, the year 1959. Today capital punishment is against the law, again the people put pressure on politicians and the law was change before Canada eliminated the death penalty in 1976
Henry Morgentaler In 1969 he gave up his family practice and began openly performing illegal abortions. Soon after in 1970 he was arrested in Quebec for performing one. This was three years before the Supreme Court of the United States legalized abortion in the Roe v. Wade case.
Morgentaler was charged again in 1983 in Ontario for procuring illegal miscarriages. He was acquitted by a jury, but the verdict was reversed by the Ontario Court of Appeal. The case was then sent to the Supreme Court of Canada. He was acquitted once again, and the Canadian Supreme Court declared the law he was convicted under to be unconstitutional in the case of Morgentaler et al. v. Her Majesty The Queen 1988 (1 S.C.R. 30).
This ruling essentially ended all statutory restrictions on abortion in Canada.
What about drugs? A recent decision in R. v. Long on July 13, 2007 in Ontario's Provincial court has struck down the cannabis possession laws in Ontario, and for the time being possession laws in the province cannot be enforced, essentially making it legal. Appeals have yet to be made. Does anyone not believe that we will one day be like Denmark where we have little cafes where you are allowed to purchase personal use of this drug?
Nice comments Joe
The people make the laws.
Prophet :2h :2s
PS Did you know craps use to be illegal in this country until just a few years ago because of some early laws
lol, you wouldn't have made it very far as a revolutionary back in the day..
Laws change all the time based on the voice of the people.
On an aside, I think Prophet could have tried a little harder to bias his questions... my suggestion would be...
lets work together!!!
The benefit that the people wishing for it to be repealed was that for many years it was not against the law to sell alchohol and it was a very recent law.
As this relates to poker, it is a long uphill battle that will not be sucessful with a grassroots letter writing campaign or badgering MPPs and MPs. Writing letters to the editor would probably backfire as they would pick the worst letters with the most moronic ideas and make poker players either look like degenerates or criminals.
So how do we get the laws changed? Unless a group hires a lobbyist(and a good one at that) and either find or elect like-minded politicians it will be an unwinable battle. This is not negative thinking but more realistic.
One other way is the attitude taken when clubs are busted and people are arrested. I have seen a lot of negative comments against the police who do the busting. We cannot blame them. They are doing their job as directed by the laws of this country at the behest of our government. The odds are a lot of them are against the law as it stands as were the police back during the Prohibition of alchohol. If you get busted taken your lumps and fight it in court. You'll probably lose but fight the law not the people like you and are who are just basically employees of the law.
I am waiting for Poker Stars and similar sites to start working together and spending some of their billions change the laws. Of course if they did they would end up losing money when poker becomes regulated and they start paying the US/Canadian government their cut.
Casinos won't use their influence and money to legalize it. Instead of letter writing campaigns this movement would need people of influence to raise awareness. Pros are not what I mean. People like CEOs and funders of political campaigns. Find them and the movement has legs.
Poker is not illegal
You can play poker at any time you want. For a good range of stakes as well.
Prophet and I discussed this. Poker, as it stands now, is almost effectively no different than alcohol. The government tells you who can provide the service (alcohol / poker), and where you can consume it (bars / LLBO areas vs casinos). Further, the argument came up that you can drink at home - well, you can play poker at home.. but if you try to profit off either, it's illegal.
The other arguments (abortion / capitol punishment) get into an entirely new ethical realm.... we're no longer discussing vices or "bad habits", but rather life and death (yes, I am aware that alcohol can be related to numerous deaths / year - as can gambling, but it's not QUITE as direct).
As for the drug debate, using Marijuana in particular, this is another situtation not unlike alcohol / poker - the government currently has a system in place whereby you can attain it - no it's not "perfect", nor is it universally available, but it's a work in progress.
Personally I think it'd be great to have independant poker businesses outside of casinos, not unlike restaurants (pool halls / bowling alleys) that provide alcohol instead of just a bar. However, THIS may be the better approach. A regulated establishment. Arguments against poker dens are usually about alcohol / violence / potential for robbery. Well, so are bars. You tell me that a poker game that spreads let's just say 1/2 NL is going to have more cash on hand than a popular nightclub?
They could limit the buy-ins, regulate the rake, stipulate the number of players at any given time, establish codes of conduct (not unlike "Smart Serve"), and also take precautionary measures (e.g. no alcohol allowed, some form of security requirements, etc.) level the playing field for all clubs, and make a tidy profit themselves.
Mark
I was thinking long and hard about going into these establishments. I used to frequent the "Nutz" regularly. Now you have to worry about the police confiscating chips (your money) not to mention the other end of things -crime - and getting ripped off. You have to worry if this is a fair game. Who really knows.
Poker is legal. Raking is not. And my opinion is that so long as the government's run the casino's in this country, they will never EVER change the laws. Even if they thought they could generate more tax revenue by doing so, the casino management/owners would lobby to ensure it is kept the way it is. After all, it restricts their competition, and sends the gamblers to their establishments.
I can almost guarantee you at this moment, the lobbying group representing the casinos are STRONGLY encouraging governments and law enforcements to step up underground club raids.
However I wonder if your paralleling our situation as intelligent players of a skill game, to pot smokers, alcoholics et al is wise? There may be comparable dynamics in the process and path to legalization, but that is probably the case where any change of law is req'd- and you are certainly not bolstering the image of the game.
I'd rather liken it to professional chess and act with the same outrage and contempt one would feel if the gov't decided to impound our countries rooks.
Think of it like that, and then remember that you can buy a beer just down the street but must drive to Brantford/Niagara to profitably engage the live skillset you've spent time and effort developing.
The current situation is unreasonable. As I said in the other thread, we're enthusiasts, NOT degenerates. Once that point is made the government must allow us to provide better access to game of skill and certainly should even further to -ENCOURAGE a game that develops understanding at least of so many basic skills: math, human motivation, self awareness.
My position is probably more easily argued(pro) and subscribed to.
poker is legal, both in casinos and non-raked home game. I played a legal game as recently as last night at a friends house. (and won
You left out the most important case of all... Gwen Jacobs
*sighs*
Mark
If it wasn't illegal, there would be no money in doing it. If poker clubs could open anywhere, the government would take a big cut with taxes and licensing. The competition would also be fierce. -- which of course would force clubs to lower the rake more and more to be competitive.
I know full well how much money many underground clubs rake in on the average evening. I'd be happy to pay the occassional fine to make that kind of money. A cost of doing business.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
When will your club be opening up?
is alan young your crim prof?
Huhhhhhhhhhhhhhh?
On a side note, is it any wonder that these places get busted, especially if they advertise that they are open on here. You really don't think LE wouldn't happen to take a look at this site or sites just like it on the odd occasion?
They wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't. That's not the point though. The industry is already regulated, much like liquor in the province is. If you want to indulge, you're welcome to do so, but ONLY LEGALLY from the places the government endorse. Everything else is not permitted. You're right though in saying if it were permitted, and taxes were being taken from the small clubs, most of these places would close up shop. Why? COMPETITION.
Competition does not seem to be hurting the number of clubs that are out there now. Just enforcement and skullz seem to be making a dent but that is pretty weak.
The game of Poker has been around for hundreds of years. More specifically, Texas Hold-em has been played for many decades. Poker was first aired on TV more than 35 years ago and although it was interesting to watch for some people, it did not appeal to most because the audience did not know what cards the players were holding in their hands. In 2003 two major events happened to change all of that. The first was a new TV show called World Poker Tour, which used a new technology called a Hole Card Cam, which is basically a pin-hole camera that lets the audience know what cards each player is holding. The audience could now see the amazing bluffs that some of these players were making with terrible cards. The other event that took place was the airing of the 2003 World Series of Poker, which had also adopted the use of the Hole Card Cam. In this event an amateur player that won a $10,000 seat into this event through an on-line $40 satellite ended up winning $2.5 million dollars! The audience watched Chris Moneymaker, an accountant from a small town, take on a field of over 800 players, mostly professionals, and win, while only spending $40 to do it!
Due to these two major events the game of Poker has exploded in popularity and shows no sign of slowing down. You can now find Poker programming on every major TV station in North America and around the world. The difference between Poker and any other sport is that anyone that is willing to put up the entry fee can participate and play against the pros. That is not something you can do in Golf for example. You cannot enter The Canadian Open, pay an entry fee, and end up playing next to Tiger Woods.
The problem that we as Poker players have, living in the great city of Toronto, is that there is no legal place to play. We have to drive almost two hours north or south in order to play poker legally. Both Casinorama and Fallsview Casino Resort cannot handle the crowds. Both casinos only have 10-12 poker tables although they could fill 30-40 tables. They only have a certain amount of square footage to work with and they make a lot more money from slot machines and black jack tables than they do from Poker. Because of this there are huge waiting lists to play and it sometimes takes hours to get on a table. I believe the casinos take advantage of this and purposely do not expand their Poker rooms so that the players waiting lose their money on other games of chance in the casino.
Due to these circumstances hundreds of illegal, underground Poker rooms have opened up in the GTA. Most of these rooms are being run by normal everyday people and the players in these rooms are normal working class people. I personally have played at many of these rooms and have gotten to know owners and players. I have played with people from every kind of profession at these rooms, including lawyers, doctors, business owners, policemen and even a retired judge. As I’m sure you have heard, recently there were some police raids on some of these clubs and I happened to be at one when the raid occurred. 20-30 ETF officers in full riot gear and laser pointed machine guns blew through the door and scared the daylight out of the 40 players and staff of this particular club. All they had to do was knock, by the way, and they would have been let in. Luckily none of the players were charged and after we were all questioned we were released and the owner of the establishment was charged. The police could spend a lot of time and money doing raids similar to this one every week but it would only be the tip of the iceberg. There are hundreds of Poker clubs like this one in the city and even the ones that get raided often re-open with-in weeks at a new location.
The reason I am writing this letter to you is because I know you are leading the fight to open a full casino in Toronto. I don’t think that is going to happen any time soon but I do have some suggestions for you. The problem with Poker is that the criminal code considers it a game of chance when in fact it certainly is not. Luck can only get you those two cards but you have to know what to do with them. Knowing when and what to bet, when to raise, when to bluff, calculating pot odds and implied odds has nothing to do with luck but is a skill that comes with knowledge and experience. That is why there is millions of dollars being made with Poker books and instructional DVD’s. Bingo, on the other hand, is a total game of chance and you can find legal bingo halls all over the city. I have two suggestions for you that could rid the city of illegal gaming and also make incredible revenues for all levels of government.
The first is to open a 40-50 table Poker room at Woodbine Casino which would instantly shut down most illegal poker rooms almost instantly. The next idea is a little more interesting and I think is the way to go if you would like to create more revenue for the city of Toronto. You could legalize private Poker clubs throughout the city. The owners would have to be screened and bonded. Each club would have to pay the city a licensing fee every year. The dealers and other staff would have to take courses and pay yearly licensing fees as well. The revenue that these clubs make would be taxed so that the other levels of government would also get there piece. A percentage of the revenue could also go to specific charities or non-profit organizations similar to what bingo halls do. These private clubs would all have to operate under the same rule book and procedures including rake structure or session fees. These clubs could then do their own advertising and provide proper security for their patrons. The players would much rather play at a legal private club where they know they will not be arrested or robbed. The underground clubs would not be able to compete and would either have to apply to become a legal establishment or just shut the doors. This approach seems like common sense to me and it solves many of the city’s problems. Mainly, the city would receive a new stream of revenue and the crime rate would go down and the police would have a lot more time to pursue the real criminals.
I’m sorry for such a long winded letter but this subject is a real passion of mine and I also would like to see our great city of Toronto step out of the Stone Age and grow to accommodate its own culture. If you would like to get together for a coffee and discuss this in person, I would be very happy to do so.
Thank you! Manny
The Toronto Sun also took a big hit. They lost 2 pages of ad revenue overnight.
Duh it's the Canadian OPEN. Of course you can. Similarly the US OPEN.
http://www.thecanadianopen.ca/innerpage.aspx?x=h9NFgwewzybrbLCq45iX1aGKAIyPCENsOO7eFLH58Jyy664ruXDOdEMldy99DjkW
Tiger won't be there though
Neither will Phil Gordon, or Daniel Negranu at the $160's or 1200's at fallsview....