Hand discussion - OOP suited connectors (In Parts)
Okay... no real reads on a table outside of WCG|Rider being a fairly decent player just not creative.
Your image is a tight aggressive player, who has been betting with great hands (top set, top two pair, made straight) when you had to show. Aggressive, but not overly loose (VP$IP : 22.86%, PF Raise 11%, Went to SD: 32%, [EMAIL="W$@SD"]W$@SD[/EMAIL]: 77%)
POKERSTARS GAME #11729354430: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/08/27 - 21:19:06 (ET)
Table 'Dziban IV' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Virus3232 ($70.65 in chips)
Seat 2: dakota9ball ($28.30 in chips)
Seat 4: DrTyore ($34.70 in chips)
Seat 5: WCG|Rider ($42.50 in chips)
Seat 7: DaddyBlades ($25 in chips)
Seat 8: Yojimbo50 ($13.25 in chips)
Seat 9: toti19 ($10.05 in chips)
derrickzilla: is sitting out
DrTyore: posts small blind $0.10
WCG|Rider: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DrTyore [5d 4d]
DaddyBlades: folds
Yojimbo50: raises $0.25 to $0.50
toti19: calls $0.50
Virus3232: folds
dakota9ball: folds
DrTyore: calls $0.40
WCG|Rider: raises $1.50 to $2
Yojimbo50: calls $1.50
toti19: folds
DrTyore: ????
A loose-ish call from OOP already, but I figured that it's a hand that I can get away from without at least two pair, and the EP min-raise deserves to be punished (i.e. he may have a big hand and NO idea how to play it).
The re-raise however.... thoughts?
(More to come soon)
Mark
Your image is a tight aggressive player, who has been betting with great hands (top set, top two pair, made straight) when you had to show. Aggressive, but not overly loose (VP$IP : 22.86%, PF Raise 11%, Went to SD: 32%, [EMAIL="W$@SD"]W$@SD[/EMAIL]: 77%)
POKERSTARS GAME #11729354430: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/08/27 - 21:19:06 (ET)
Table 'Dziban IV' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Virus3232 ($70.65 in chips)
Seat 2: dakota9ball ($28.30 in chips)
Seat 4: DrTyore ($34.70 in chips)
Seat 5: WCG|Rider ($42.50 in chips)
Seat 7: DaddyBlades ($25 in chips)
Seat 8: Yojimbo50 ($13.25 in chips)
Seat 9: toti19 ($10.05 in chips)
derrickzilla: is sitting out
DrTyore: posts small blind $0.10
WCG|Rider: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DrTyore [5d 4d]
DaddyBlades: folds
Yojimbo50: raises $0.25 to $0.50
toti19: calls $0.50
Virus3232: folds
dakota9ball: folds
DrTyore: calls $0.40
WCG|Rider: raises $1.50 to $2
Yojimbo50: calls $1.50
toti19: folds
DrTyore: ????
A loose-ish call from OOP already, but I figured that it's a hand that I can get away from without at least two pair, and the EP min-raise deserves to be punished (i.e. he may have a big hand and NO idea how to play it).
The re-raise however.... thoughts?
(More to come soon)
Mark
Comments
Then you have the min-raiser cold calling, since he didn't come over the top I would not be to concerned about him. He probably pop it if he had a big pair.
My thinking is Big Ace (or better) from WCG vs med pair from the minraiser.
If I'm in a gambling mood I call since I close the action. Can you get away from 2pr if there is a 7 8 or 9 on the board and the minraiser fires a good size bet?
I know this one of those "let's gambool" hands, and that generally puts me in a mindset of being VERY cautious when I hit something like two pair (it'll be VERY vulnerable obviously). So, should it come down something like 4-5-9 and I get re-popped all in, I can probably let it go.
Mark
(In white to not skew any latecomers to the discussion)
DrTyore: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [6h 8d Td]
DrTyore: checks
WCG|Rider: bets $3.75
Yojimbo50: calls $3.75
DrTyore: ???
So, with the pot at $6, the re-raiser bets 3.75 which is called by the original raiser. I didn't hit a miracle flop, but I do have a flush draw and a gutshot straight draw (though it's dirty end for a 4 card higher straight).
The pot is now 13.50 and it costs me 3.75 to call - a bit better than 3.5:1 odds....
Thoughts?
Yojim probably hit that for a set (base on my read of med pair for him). Is he capable of slowplaying a set with 2 flush cards on the board?
Not quite the odds for the flush, put close enough for me.
Do you think either of these guys will pay off your flush?
A call is ok.
I don't want to see a 9 (or really even a 7) on the turn unless it completes my flush.
I think had he hit the set, and just called with it, he'd be doing so out of fear rather than sneakiness. Do you like my first action? Or would you have done differently?
Mark
The gambool is good
DrTyore: calls $3.75
*** TURN *** [6h 8d Td] [3s]
DrTyore: checks
WCG|Rider: checks
Yojimbo50: checks
*** RIVER *** [6h 8d Td 3s] [6d]
DrTyore: checks
WCG|Rider: checks
Yojimbo50: checks
Mark
I assume the check on the turn would be followed by a call for a small bet (odds).
The river I no like, complete my flush by pairs the board. No if I was correct YoJim just filled up.
Given the check down I'd say one paired his ten and the other had the Ad for the busted flush draw.
PM me the result if you don't want to post yet.
I am curious.
The results were immaterial overall, but here they are in white... I was more curious as to whether this is the kinda gambool you other degenerates do on occasion...
*** RIVER *** [6h 8d Td 3s] [6d]
DrTyore: checks
WCG|Rider: checks
Yojimbo50: checks
*** SHOW DOWN ***
DrTyore: shows [5d 4d] (a flush, Ten high)
WCG|Rider: mucks hand
Yojimbo50: mucks hand
DrTyore collected $16.90 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $17.75 | Rake $0.85
Board [6h 8d Td 3s 6d]
Seat 1: Virus3232 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: dakota9ball (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: DrTyore (small blind) showed [5d 4d] and won ($16.90) with a flush, Ten high
Seat 5: WCG|Rider (big blind) mucked [Qh Kc]
Seat 7: DaddyBlades folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Yojimbo50 mucked [7d 7c]
Seat 9: toti19 folded before Flop
Mark
Overall well played in my donkish opinion.
Just wanted the results to see how close I was on my read.
Overall though, I think from an odds POV, I had to call once I was in the hand.... poor odds pre-flop obviously, and would like to justify "implied odds" but I obviously didn't exploit those either.
Mark
NH.
My main concerns are three fold:
A: The gutshot straight draw is for the idiot end, giving higher straights out there
B: The flush isn't exactly a powerful one, and it is possible that someone has a bigger one
C: It's me... DrTyore and "Catching outs" aren't exactly common
I kid I kid..
Mark
Are you trying to CR the flush there? Bait a worse hand into betting, or is this MUBS?
Overpairs (unlikely), top pair are going to hate that card and don't want to risk getting check raised. Besides, it was checked around on turn and you can't expect someone to bet.
I don't think you can assume the original min raiser flopped a set just because your initial read involves some middle pair hands. He isn't slow playing on a flop that scary with connected cards and a flush draw with an opponent behind him. It's far more likely he has a draw himself or weak made hand. Reraiser should have an overpair reraising but that doesn't make much sense given the non-turn bet.
If you're going to chase your flush getting like 3.5:1 odds or so, you certainly have to get some value from it when you hit. River is an easy value bet IMO. Maybe 1/3 to half pot?
I was likely to bet a non-paired board flop I think, but I still in the end only have the 5 high - which is a stupidly dangerous thing to be betting on... the only hands likely to play with me will be raising and a check / call mode allows some control over pot size? I can probably call upwards of $5 or even nearly $10 there, but if I get repopped for $40?
Mark
you have to bet the river though... you are missing a ton of value by not betting... all you need to be worried about is a higher flush.
Not unless it involves a 7 8 offsuit
I think it was pretty freakin horrible Mark. What is the point of counting flush outs if you don't think they are good? If you aren't counting flush outs then you shouldn't have called. If you were counting flush outs then you should have bet.
You justify a call based on a flush draw but don't bet it. That's just bad poker.
I quantify this hand as - let me play it as weakly as possible and hope I'm good because I lack the brains to play it any other way.
but ditto on what Moose said.
So much for donkey-patting...
I do think it was a "gee, my nuts fell off" situation after thinking some more about it. Generally this was a pretty standard hand but something wasn't quite sitting right, and I think Moose (and Kristy) just hit it on the head....
In this particular case (based on what was shown down), I doubt that I missed many bets by the river, but agreed in a simlar situation I should be betting the river... Good way of thinking with regards to counting outs and then being a pussy anyways...
Mark
I must admit though, I would have played the hand like Mark. On a paired board, with a 5 high flush, I would assume the only hand that would call me is the hand that beats me. But I am starting to be convinced otherwise.
Thanks
Ineedanick
You got lucky by hitting your hand and being against such bad opponents. The turn call was ok but only if you continue with the hand you must ignore the chance of any 9 or higher flush (or full house) being there and make some serious $$$ when you hit. Up against 2 players, I would not be overly concerned about that. If you knew your opponents were bluffers, checking the river might be ok to induce a bluff.
I'm writing this without seeing everyone else's analysis so if I'm repeating something already please bear that in mind.
Humm a min raise from EP.
Is that screaming either, "I have aces" or "I'm a donk"
With 45s your hand plays well multi-player.
So you want to see the flop cheap.
I like the initial call.
I would call the $1.50 raise.
It's less than 5% of stack sizes so you have implied odds if you hit.
You're getting over 3 to 1 odds.
Very very rarely you can raise with suited connectors if;
Your opponents are observant and
Your preflop raises are getting too much respect.
Your opponents steal from you if you bet and rags fall.
But that's not the case here.
I also think it's okay to fold 54s here if the stacks were a bit shorter, A min raise and a pot size reraise usually means trouble. If the stacks were shorter I would tend to just fold, considering the implied odds insuffient.