What do you do here?
Here is the set up. Ring 2-5NL game, relatively tight, a few collision hands but nothing really exciting, just a lot of 100-200 dollar pots, nothing crazy. To my left is an older gentlemen been playing really tight only showing down big hands, when I sat down he had about 1500 in front of him, he has been chipped away at and now sits at 600 due to a couple of really bad beats. I have built my stack from 500 to 1100.
I am small SB and I pick up AKc
7 people call 5 bucks, I limp for the additional 2, BB (the old dude) raises 45. Everyone folds I call.
Flop comes AH KH 10D
I check, he bets out 20. I check raise 80. He immedialely pushes for 415 all in.
Thoughts?
I am small SB and I pick up AKc
7 people call 5 bucks, I limp for the additional 2, BB (the old dude) raises 45. Everyone folds I call.
Flop comes AH KH 10D
I check, he bets out 20. I check raise 80. He immedialely pushes for 415 all in.
Thoughts?
Comments
Pre-flop you should have raised, punish the limpers, don't let garbage in there for free. Slowplaying AK still causes cancer - that's a fact
Second thought
Lead out at that flop, if he has AQ / AJ (which is possible), then don't give the chance for a free draw. Check-raising causes cancer - another fact!
Third thought:
He's tight, you have top two pair. Do you think he raised with JQ? No. Do you think he has AA / KK ? Possible, but you would have had to hit the case A/K.
I call here, but my hand would have played out differently.
Mark
I doubt he does this with AQ.
Fold.
EDIT: I think you have forgotten a key: What does he think of you? Does he think that you are just semibluffing the flush draw? That would increase the odds of him having AQ.
Perhaps A10? I mean, tight is one thing, but with 8 limpers behind, I want to punish them.
Course, this depends if he's stupid-tight, or good-tight.
Mark
Yeah he was good tight, one of those Old rocks that sit at a table for hours...and because he was playing beside me for most of the night he was showing me his hands he was playing so I got a good sense of his PF play and post flop.
I did fold to the all in raise because I have seen these hands played out time and time again. The check raise IMO gives my hand away so I put him on a set and he knows I must have a monster as well hence the huge re-raise.
What a collision hand. Anyone else at the table makes that play I call right away. His image was too solid.
DrTyore = bad player
Mark
LOL I beg to differ!
Another AK would make a lot of sense too. Not that this really changes your decision though.
AT is about the only hand I can see you ahead of, but I don't know if that falls within his range of raising into multiple limpers OOP in the big blind with. (If he's weak-tight his range is probably closer to AK, QQ+).
The super weak flop lead is odd IMO. Does he do this with vulnerable holdings OOP, or does he make these weak leads with genuine monsters? I agree that this smells a lot like a set...
Were you showing him your cards on other hands? What was his image of you?
I expect he makes this move PF only with a super premium hand. AA, KK, AKs, QQ, maybe AQ or JJ. A true rock wouldn't do this with TT I don't think.
Then he has to consider what kind of hands a thinking player calls the raise OOP with little more than 10x the raise behind? Strong Aces and medium PP? Suited connectors or suited Aces by weaker players getting bad odds? It really depends on how he reads you.
I would be a bit suspicious of his miniscule bet on the flop. 20 into 130? What does that say? 'Woohoo! Top/Middle set. I hope you have an Ace and think I'm weak'? 'Top pr. Good kicker. Call me with your underpair or gutshot'? 'Dammit my QQ just got outflopped and I hope you didn't call me with some kind of suited Ace'? 'Sweet! Top 2. Let's see how much I can milk him for'?
When you CR, what kind of hand does he put you on? I really doubt he can put you on AK here more likely a suited Ace or some kind of strange flush draw or top pair with a gutshot. So he could well be making the play with AK or AQ trying to chase out a draw.
And what does the huge overbet say? He thinks you are on a draw and his hand is vulnerable. He's been waiting all day for a premium hand and he's tired of getting sucked out by weak draws from bad players. Terrible way to play AA or KK but possibly how he'd play AK, AQ or a frustrated QQ. Again totally read dependent.
I can't say I'd call here but I'm curious as hell as to what he had.
Really???
Let say he pumps it as a pot bet to find out who has a hand from the limpers, call it 40.00. Now the BB flat calls and everyone else folds as in OP. Do you really have any idea of where you are at?
Not really.
The check is not as bad as people think. The really scare is the 20.00 bet. ( I call here and see another card hoping for a heart or to fill up, and regardless the card check again) and do the same on the river. No need to lose all my chips here.
The other thing is if the heard or straight doesn't come, then I can maybe make a value bet on the river although I like the check and value call better.
I know people like to check raise but 80.00, this amount does nothing to tell you what he has in his hand. Now he goes all-in and you are left with a real decision.
His cards don't really matter. He either has you beat or just trying to out play you and has used the fact that he has showed you all his big hands.
You have to fold.
Prophet :2h :2s
What is your objective with AKs? Are you hoping to hit TPTK against 1 or 2 opponents or the nut flush against a big crowd? Or maybe a nut flush draw with 2 overs against 2-4 opponents? With a hand that strong, it would be nice to build the pot a bit but being OOP, how much do you want to give the strength of your hand away?
If he's going to raise with AKs OOP against 7 limpers and he wants to thin the crowd, I think he's got to go to something like 12-15xBB. Looks like he would have only gotten the 1 caller anyway. On the flop, he'd have to make a pot-committing bet, get raised all-in and hope for the best.
I think the CR to 80 is the issue. BB has to call 60 into a pot of 230 with position and 2 cards to come. It tells him you have a strong Ace so he only calls with a hand that beats that or a decent draw. And there is no decent draw he could have here. So I guess we can reckon BB has at least AK here.
I'm curious why the OP went for the CR here? Trying to see if he had QQ? Couldn't you have found out with a 50-60 lead-out bet?
There were a couple of factors going into this on why I decided a CR instead of a lead out.
1. He is a tight player and the raise of 45 or 9x the BB has consistently shown in that sort of position to be a big holding. Preflop I put him on 10/10-QQ (15% on KK or AA, just because I was holding AK). I can't put him on any less because he was not the type of player to make moves from the BB. Most of his moves were done in position with multiple people in the pot.
2. With the flop AK10 and me holding AK I wanted to represent that I had just called with a pocket pair, having him put me on maybe 99-QQ and now that I see AK on the board he knows I would release my hand, because I had done that several times in the game, where I would release if I saw over cards (9/10 times someone hit their over in a multiway pot in this game) so I was hoping for the continuation bet, and the 20 bucks representing at that point "well looks like you missed kid, I'll bet out and take it down right there and if you happen to have anything I hope its better than my hand"
With that said, I wanted him to actually smooth call the 80 bet hoping he picked up AJ or AQ....but the re-raise of 415 looked to me that he thought I was pushing a flush draw on him or a straight draw or AX and he had me dominated.
The stack sizes here are the most relevant tell for me. He had 600 in front and I had 1100....he had just lost 900 in the past hour so he was looking to get it back, and I truly believed he thought I was the type of player that would pay him off....hence the overbet.
But the bet on the flop or the call instead of CR would have been more optional at this point and hoping to fill the boat and then push on him.
Thanks again for all the insight, nice to see we have a little mirror of the 2+2 going but CDN style
This sounds like one of my teachers talking!!! I am pretty sure I know you, wish you could PM and tell me who you are.
If he had QQ who cares! You are way ahead here. The all-in bet is a get out of here bet, I want what is in the pot already and I am beat already or I have a set and I want you to think I can't have a caller drawing to the flush and it is going to cost you everything I have to see the next 2 cards.
Either way I think you have to fold and try again later
Prophet :2h :2s
PS Hope he tells us what he had
And if he has AA or KK, isn't pushing here a terrible play? I expect if he smooth calls here, you have to lead out on the turn for a big chunk of your stack and he can trap you for a lot more money?
AA for the set
He did admit he played the hand wrong, and I did tell him he would have gotten all my money if i did flop a set....i also told him it just didn't feel right in my head and that I knew he knew what i was thinking...it was quite the psychological play on his part because he saw me earlier in the game play a set of 10s the exact same way and get paid off by AJ with a flop of A109
So just to show you online poker isn't rigged...live poker is...damn dealers...lol
I think sometimes you just know and you have to fold! Other times you know, and you make the call. But here is the thing, you are only in for 100.00 and a bit, why risk the whole nights work on this one hand.
Prophet :2h :2s