Another question...

InsaneGuy

Sorry if I'm asking alot of question but I came to realisation by reading and asking some question that what I thought I knew we're not as good as I thought it was (if that makes any sense!) :P

I'm not questionning the outcome of the hand but more the pre-flop action, I just "called" ... should I have re-raised or fold ?
Looking at it again it feels like I should have raised but I'm not sure.

The guy was raising and stealing blinds I guess I wanted that to stop.


PokerStars Game #11576891047: Tournament #57898632, $10+$1 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2007/08/19 - 16:16:07 (ET)
Table '57898632 1742' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: 3 tommies (2370 in chips)
Seat 2: TroyLay (3460 in chips)
Seat 3: robjoker37 (10205 in chips)
Seat 4: StandyUpDuck (2737 in chips)
Seat 5: pico07 (1970 in chips)
Seat 6: bfineman (5800 in chips)
Seat 7: InsaneGuy (4010 in chips)
Seat 8: pcal54 (3665 in chips)
Seat 9: vytcka28 (4285 in chips)
3 tommies: posts small blind 75
TroyLay: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to InsaneGuy [Qs Ad]
robjoker37: raises 350 to 500
StandyUpDuck: folds
pico07: folds
bfineman: folds
InsaneGuy: calls 500
pcal54: folds
vytcka28: folds
3 tommies: folds
TroyLay: folds
*** FLOP *** [Qc 2c Tc]
robjoker37: bets 2000
InsaneGuy: raises 1510 to 3510 and is all-in
robjoker37: calls 1510
*** TURN *** [Qc 2c Tc] [Kh]
*** RIVER *** [Qc 2c Tc Kh] [6c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
robjoker37: shows [Qd Kd] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
InsaneGuy: shows [Qs Ad] (a pair of Queens)
robjoker37 collected 8245 from pot
illern is connected
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8245 | Rake 0
Board [Qc 2c Tc Kh 6c]
Seat 1: 3 tommies (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: TroyLay (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: robjoker37 showed [Qd Kd] and won (8245) with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 4: StandyUpDuck folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: pico07 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: bfineman folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: InsaneGuy showed [Qs Ad] and lost with a pair of Queens
Seat 8: pcal54 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: vytcka28 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Hobbes

AQ with an UTG raiser is either a fold or a rereaise All-in.
If like you said, you felt it was just a blind steal attempt then you should have pushed.

PS Next time don't include the hand results. It may skew some of the comments.

InsaneGuy

That's what I thought...
I should take more time to make my decision sometimes.

Maybe the end result would have been the same but I would have felt better about it, now it feels like I played it wrong and I don't like it.

And I guess you're right about the hand details

JimmyHo

I like your play on this hand; only 3xBB to call and at this point you only have ace high; after the flop you have top pair and a great kicker. He pushes with nothing trying to scare you off the hand. You go all-in when you are favoured to win the hand and get unlucky when the K hits on the turn. I don't think you need to push at this point in the tournament with the blinds still pretty low (M=18 ). Not many players would fold to an aggressive player with top pair and ace kicker on the flop. If he has a club, you take your chances.

Hobbes

pokerJAH wrote: »

He pushes with nothing trying to scare you off the hand.

He pushed with top pair and the second best kicker.
But like you said, Insane guy pushed with the best hand and you have to let the Poker Gods decide the hand.

-ev

It depends. You need to tell us about the image of the raiser and the people left to act behind you. Did he raise a lot OOP or in late position only?

If the guy raises light UTG and the people behind have been playing very tight then yes, you could probably make a good argument to push here. Just be aware, he has a huge stack and may be willing to call you regardless of his % to win if he is loose-aggressive. From his eyes, he likely puts you on some kind of mid-pair or decent Ace when you push so you can expect him to call.

Your stack is healthy so you are in no rush to make a move now. Given the UTG raise, there is a reasonable chance you could be in a coin-flip against a lower pair or be significantly behind AK, AA or KK. Also consider you have 4 people left to act behind you. None of them desperate yet but at least one getting close to that point.

Any raise other than a min-raise pretty much commits you to the hand. Calling seems kind of weak and (depending on your opponent) your hand is too good to fold.

AJ I think I would fold for sure here. I gotta learn to let AQ go here too. There just aren't enough chips in the pot to make it worth the risk.

InsaneGuy

I see your point ...
It's a big raise and call early in a tournament maybe I got a bit over-excited with my hand yet I did have the best hand until that king on the turn.

-ev

InsaneGuy wrote: »

I did have the best hand until that king on the turn.

And anyone brave enough to call with 3c beats you both! My point is, you don't know you are ahead with a UTG raise and 4 people left to act.

There's 8-10% chance someone behind you has QQ, KK, AA or AK and calls you. You are soundly behind all of these. You push, then they push and he likely folds.

Consider the range of hands he would raise with UTG.
I expect he'd have one of the above hands about 5-10% of the time, unless he is a complete maniac. Highly read dependent. You are a big dog here.

He has a smaller PP perhaps 15-20% of the time. You are slightly behind these.

He has a weaker Ace or Queen maybe 20% of the time. You'd be in the driver's seat then. Looks like he still calls in this case!

He has 2 live cards somewhere around 50% of the time. You would be a 55-65% favourite I suppose if he calls your push. He'd put you on a mid-PP or good Ace. The worst 10% maybe he folds (2 cards lower than 8 ). Given his big stack, he likely calls the rest figuring he's a coin flip and getting something like 1.4:1 odds. Only if he could put you on AA, KK, QQ, AK or AQ would it make sense for him to fold here.

People can argue with the numbers or someone can add it all up and come up with the EV of a push here (most likely slightly positive). Bottom line, a push probably only wins uncontested here about 10-15% of the time. When you are called, you are a big dog 10-20% of the time, 40-60% fav close to half the time and around 70% fav maybe 20% of the time. His position, the players left to act and the size of the blinds vs your stack make it a difficult spot to push.

Kristy

dammit

-ev..I keep reading all your posts waiting for another one comparable to your thoughts on the music video.

STR82ACE

Kristy_Sea wrote: »

dammit

-ev..I keep reading all your posts waiting for another one comparable to your thoughts on the music video.

Must I ban you again?
sigh

-ev

STR82ACE wrote: »

Must I ban you again?
sigh

I must have missed all the excrement. I do have some ideas on how to spice up that video though! Come to think of it, what happened to that whole "masturbating on the leather seats and squirting" poker video thread? That really had potential.

InsaneGuy

Gotcha...

So just to sum it up, the best decision, based on his big raise and my position would have been to fold my hand.

SOmetimes it's really hard to do it but I'm getting more and more responsible with my poker and for some reason I lose more but I guess once I get it right it'll even itself out !

Thanks again for the replies!

moose

WTF is going on here? You are in middle position with a premium hand. An aggressive player with a big stack makes an average raise (just over 3x the blind, hardly a big raise). I'm looking to double through here every time. The hand played out perfect. He hit a 3 outer to beat you.

You start listening to these people and folding this hand you are going to become the worst poker player ever.

-ev

moose wrote: »

You start listening to these people and folding this hand you are going to become the worst poker player ever.

You are a good tournament player so I will not dismiss your viewpoint with a mere wave of the hand.

I can see your point but I lean more towards waiting for a better spot to get all my chips in for all the reasons stated above. The OP was not clear if the raiser habitually raised UTG with garbage, nor did it state how the players yet to act were playing.

I'm curious how other experienced tournament players see this. Unfortunately few of them seem to post on this board.

DrTyore

You want to wait for a better spot? Umm.. he had 3 cards that would win it for him.... how much better do you want?

I re-raise there, see where I'm at. I have position, you say that he's been pretty LAG-gy, and a raise and re-raise infront, leaving the action open, means any player worth their salt behind me is going to fold hands like suited connectors or small pocket pairs. A re-raise will essentially isolate a player that you're dominating, or show someone else to be huge when they come along or re-re-raise. It makes the decisions much easier.

**Alternate Reality Time**

You have 4010 in chips to Villain's 10,205 in chips, about 40%.
Villain raises to $500 - about 3.5x BB
Hero raises to 1500 - about 1/3 of your stack (still manageable to fold if you need to a re-re-raise).

Now, Villain may calll which is great, he's about a 70% dog.
If he folds, well, you still win some chips, increasing your stack by about 5BB

Let's say he calls.

Flop comes Qc 2C Tc

Damn, flushed boards suck with TPTK, but let's not see monsters, and look at the pot, which is now about 3.2k, well, if you think you're good, push. Here's your chance to double up. You have 2500 left, it takes away draw odds, and unless he's somehow hit better than you there, which in this case only makes sense with 1010 IMO (QQ / KK / AA should re-re-raise PF) or he had those two clubs. This approach is more aggressive, makes the opponent have to make more decisions, which generally means he'll make more mistakes.

And that's how to win poker

Mark

P.S. And to head off any discussion around how it may not be the best idea to go to war with TPTK, well, the orignial hand history did the same anyways, but the EP raiser was the aggressive one, and priced himself in....

JimmyHo

InsaneGuy wrote: »

I see your point ...
It's a big raise and call early in a tournament maybe I got a bit over-excited with my hand yet I did have the best hand until that king on the turn.

I still think you made the right play here; you are not going to fold your hand in this situation on the chance that one of the players remaining to act might have a better hand. If they re-raise, you reconsider your options, and this would be a different question. My original email was incorrect, since your opponent did have a hand when he went all-in on the flop, but folding to an aggressive player with top pair and ace kicker would not be advised. He may have trips, which is unlikely and if so, you still made the right call. Dr. T made some good points and a re-raise may also be a good move. Although at this point in the hand you are losing to any pair, etc. so I would see the flop and then make your next decision (vs risking more chips than you have to). I think AK and AQ are overplayed typically.

-ev

DrTyore wrote: »

You want to wait for a better spot? Umm.. he had 3 cards that would win it for him.... how much better do you want?

Of course you are correct. For this hand. So, if we KNOW the players behind us will fold and KNOW we have a hand that dominates the raiser, it is correct to push for 25-30BBs over a 2.5BB raise. I think that makes it much clearer. I see your point.

DrTyore

Not to mention the OP told us that he was loose / aggressive, stealing blinds repeatedly, and the Hero wanted to "stop that". Well, best way to stop someone reaching into the cookie jar is to slap the hand back... re-raise.

As I pointed out in my post, a raise of 1500 gives you control of the hand, puts pressure on the LAG, allows him to make mistakes, but leaves us our escape plan if we get pressure back.

Mark

-ev

DrTyore wrote: »

As I pointed out in my post, a raise of 1500 gives you control of the hand, puts pressure on the LAG, allows him to make mistakes, but leaves us our escape plan if we get pressure back.

Only just. That is over 30% of your stack. If you are re-raised you are getting something in the neighbourhood of 2-1 to call. Pretty hard to let AQ go at that point.

I agree push or fold. I expect pushing is slightly +EV in the general circumstance (AQ in MP against an aggressive UTG raiser) and certainly given the way the hand worked out to the flop. I'm just more in favour of a fold in the given circumstance. Something like 45% push / 55% fold. If I knew a bit more about the raiser or the players behind I could change my mind.

moose

-ev wrote: »

You are a good tournament player so I will not dismiss your viewpoint with a mere wave of the hand.

I can see your point but I lean more towards waiting for a better spot to get all my chips in for all the reasons stated above. The OP was not clear if the raiser habitually raised UTG with garbage, nor did it state how the players yet to act were playing.

I'm curious how other experienced tournament players see this. Unfortunately few of them seem to post on this board.

I am not advocating blindly shoving your chips in preflop. That's not playing poker. What I do depends entirely on my read of the situation, the relative chip stacks, how the table plays etc. Sometimes I will flat call, sometimes I will raise, in this case maybe to 1200 or so, sometimes I will shove. It also depends heavily on what my table image has been. If I have been playing somewhat weak tight, I will more likely raise or shove. If I have been aggressive, I may flat call. Whatever I figure will worry my opponents the most (you can't just play the one player in isolation -it is a full table with oppenents behind you, many people make that mistake) is what I will do.

If you shove, there is no way you can be 'outplayed'. However, you are not necessarily outplaying your opponent either. If he has a real hand, you are in deep trouble over a pot of 725. So you are risking all your chips to pick up 725 or double through or get eliminated. Probably not a great idea, unless you have observed him making bad calls with weak cards.

If he has been raising with complete crap, then 1200 will be enough to knock him off without risking everything. It also gives you the best chance to outplay your opponent. However, it depends on how skilled you think he is. It does leave him the chance to outplay you. That is the risk. It depends on what you feel your skills are vs his skills. Raising is far more powerful if you have the skills to back it up. What would you do if he shoves? What would you do if he flat calls? What would you do if you miss the board on the flop and so on. When you make your raise, you had better have the rest of the hand planned out. If you can't make the plan for the rest of the hand, then this option is eliminated and you are back to flat calling or shoving.

Flat calling can also be a good play. Again it depends on what your read of the rest of the table is. If they have simply been getting out of the way when this guy raises then you won't have to worry too much about the players behind you. If some of the other players left to act have been aggressive/tricky/trappy, I might be more worried. You are in middle position, with only two players behind you that will have position on you on the flop, so it is not too bad. By flat calling you are committing less chips to the pot and controlling the pot size. It leaves you more chips to take the pot away on the flop. If you reraise every time with AQ or better then it puts you in a very small box on the flop. Mixing up your play by flat calling enlarges the box and makes it more difficult for your opponents to know what you hold. However, flat calling is definitely weaker and leaves your opponent more opportunity to outplay you. If you have been flat calling and folding on the flop a lot, then it is probably better to reraise preflop or plan on shoving the flop regardless.

Poker with lots of chips is lots of fun because it gives you the opportunity to try different things out. You have to try different moves at different times and figure what style works best for you. Your game will constantly evolve because once your opponents know how you play, you have to be smart enough to change gears.

-ev

Well thought out answer, Mr Moose.

I would like to understand people's thought process here. Let's say a loose player UTG raises to 3BB and an average player in MP re-raises to 8BB. Say UTG is big stack and MP has 18-20BB left. You are in LP with 30BB. What do you call with? What do you re-raise with? What does UTG need to have to call getting 2.5-1 odds?

How do you interpret the big overbet on the flop? I could see this either as a bluff or a vulnerable made hand wanting to make the flush draws pay. Any other way to look at it?

moose

Ave player raises. I call with nothing. I shove 10s or better. Fold everything else.

Tight player raises, I will flat call AA or KK if I expect a cont. bet on flop. Otherwise reraise. Fold everything else.

Back to UTG, facing a raise and reraise, I fold everything but AA or KK. Maybe fold KK. Facing a raise and flat call, my range is huge here. I flat call any pp, any decent suited connector because I am looking to flop huge here and win a monster. If I raised with unsuited connectors, I am tossing.

Overbets? I interpret exactly the same way.

InsaneGuy

It's alot harder to read people in online tournament (to my experience) because you often change table / people drop out, etc.

I'd say that in the first 1-2 hours of a big tournament you have to go with your guts (I can be wrong here).

The same hand I got, if it was on a brand new table, same raise, what would you have done? This is sometime a problem I have since the raiser can be anything from a really loose to a really tight player, do you fold and wait for a read? What if you get changed tables after 10 hands ?

You end up playing pretty much nothing just because you wait and wait to read the kind of player he is.


Thanks for all the tips, I've learned more in a week on this forum than in the past few years

moose

New tables - almost always resort to ABC poker. Since he is UTG give him credit for a solid hand until you get a feel for his pattern of behaviour. What you do, depends on how you want to establish yourself at the table. If you want to show yourself as aggressive, then raise. If you generally play cautiously then just flat call and feel him out. You are already out of your comfort zone by being at a new table, so play the way that makes you feel the most comfortable.

InsaneGuy

...
Okay... I'm pissed I don't know HOW he called that and I'm just... shocked right now , shocked at my badluck and how I just can't get ANYTHING going my way.
Of course not... this is how I lose my tournaments 90% of the time, this type of hands right there.

How can you even avoid that ?
And Yes I'll post the result, YES I know It's a bad beat ... but geez how do you recover from that when it happens everytime you play poker?

I love playing poker but geez... it takes $$ and at one point I'll run dry and I won't be able to do somethng I love doing once in a while.. grrrr.

PokerStars Game #11630771928: Tournament #59005367, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2007/08/22 - 14:34:42 (ET)
Table '59005367 8' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Zocker076 (3675 in chips)
Seat 3: kobus3 (535 in chips)
Seat 4: Noezz (7308 in chips)
Seat 5: ange1234 (4250 in chips)
Seat 6: Totte196 (1470 in chips)
Seat 7: InsaneGuy (8472 in chips)
Seat 8: Watte (2555 in chips)
Seat 9: nd1842 (9411 in chips)
nd1842: posts small blind 75
Zocker076: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to InsaneGuy [Kh As]
kobus3: folds
Noezz: folds
ange1234: calls 150
Totte196: folds
InsaneGuy: raises 300 to 450
Watte: folds
nd1842: calls 375
Zocker076: folds
ange1234: calls 300
*** FLOP *** [Ac Kc 6h]
nd1842: checks
ange1234: checks
InsaneGuy: bets 1350
nd1842: calls 1350
ange1234: folds
*** TURN *** [Ac Kc 6h] [Qh]
nd1842: checks
InsaneGuy: bets 3600
nd1842: raises 4011 to 7611 and is all-in
InsaneGuy: calls 3072 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [Ac Kc 6h Qh] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
nd1842: shows [Ad Jd] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
InsaneGuy: shows [Kh As] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
nd1842 collected 17544 from pot
InsaneGuy [observer] said, "ogh man"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 17544 | Rake 0
Board [Ac Kc 6h Qh Th]
Seat 1: Zocker076 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: kobus3 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Noezz folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ange1234 folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Totte196 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: InsaneGuy showed [Kh As] and lost with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 8: Watte (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: nd1842 (small blind) showed [Ad Jd] and won (17544) with a straight, Ten to Ace

moose

what you are supposed to say is

yplc

InsaneGuy

yplc?

Maybe my mental aspect of the game is wrong ?
How do you get back on your game after a series of bad beats and lost?

Like 2 months of loss and praticly no wins.

moose

My last win in an online mtt was like 5 months ago. If you want more wins, switch to sngs and forget mtts for a while. Easiest way to change your approach is to change the game you play.

Bad beats happen. You get used to it. Just say - that's poker - and move on. You won't see any regular posting a beat beat, other than to laugh at it and certainly not complain. People putting their chips in behind is what makes poker profitable. Think about it. On every allin, except for the chops, someone is ahead and someone is behind. All you can do is make sure you are the one putting your chips in ahead and you are therefore the better poker player. Only bad players get their chips in behind. Therefore good players suffer bad beats and bad players make suckouts.

yplc - you play like crap

Typing in a few of those also makes the pain less.

InsaneGuy

hehe... well I did type alot of .. ehm... bad stuff and it did make me feel better in a way :P

And you're right I'll switch to smaller-scale tournaments and see how it goes maybe that's where I'll find my way lol.

Thanks again...