(seriously, I think that point belongs in the other thread Jeff. I had a question, I got it answered. I'd argue that your re-post tops my Q on the mindless scale)
(seriously, I think that point belongs in the other thread Jeff. I had a question, I got it answered. I'd argue that your re-post tops my Q on the mindless scale)
Huh? is that good or bad? women.. who can understand em... lol..
In Windsor for Situation #1, the players hand would have been automatically mucked, however since nobody had yet to call his ''all-in'' wager, ONLY the amount of the BB would have been forfeited to the pot. I cant see this player losing his entire stack when his wager has yet to be called. We cant assume that the SB or BB would have or wouldnt have called the wager.
For Situation #2, since the players hand WAS protected and the dealer grabbed cards by mistake AND the cards were CLEARY identifiable by both dealer and TD, his cards would be returned and game would resume as normal. If players cards were not protected, then its on the player and hand is mucked.
I disagree with 13 Cards here that the players hand should be mucked even though they WERE protected. What ''IF'' the dealer is in collusion with Player B and mucks Player A's cards even though they were protected. It wasnt Player A's fault the dealer made an error and he shouldnt be penalized for it.
I disagree with 13 Cards here that the players hand should be mucked even though they WERE protected. What ''IF'' the dealer is in collusion with Player B and mucks Player A's cards even though they were protected. It wasnt Player A's fault the dealer made an error and he shouldnt be penalized for it.
My question was not answered... How were the cards protected? I have yet to be involved with a situation (as a player or supervisor) where a player's protected cards were mucked by a dealer. I do not know any dealer that will take cards out of a player's hand or take cards that have a card protector/chip on them. I find it very curious that the OP said the cards were protected and yet the dealer managed to muck them. If we can have these details cleared up, I can better give you my final ruling....
The cards were NOT protected. However, the cards were clearly identifiable and were given back to the player. The player whispered his hole cards to the TD, who confirmed that the correct cards were given back. The TD correctly ruled that the all-in hand was live based on the following rules:
- A hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game.
- Rule #1: Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.
The cards were NOT protected. However, the cards were clearly identifiable and were given back to the player. The player whispered his hole cards to the TD, who confirmed that the correct cards were given back. The TD correctly ruled that the all-in hand was live based on the following rules:
- A hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game.
- Rule #1: Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.
TDA Rule #28.
Unprotected Hands- If a dealer kills an unprotected hand the player will have no redress and will not be entitled to a refund of bets. However, if a player had raised and the raise had not yet been called, the raise will be returned to the player.
and of course,
All players are 100% responsible for protecting their own cards.
So...
Player did NOT protect the cards.
The dealer killed an unprotected hand.
The cards were in the muck.
And you think it is in the best interest of the game for a player to WHISPER his cards to the TD ("I had Aces..sshhhh...") and then for the TD to take cards OUT OF THE MUCK (what if he grabs the wrong cards? or the player lied?) and declare them LIVE? WOW.....
I was playing 1/2 at Casino Niagara on Monday afternoon when a situation occurred which somewhat surprised me. Dealer (I believe her name was Kimberly) dealt first to the player under the gun and then continued around until everyone except the 2 blinds had 2 cards. (ie they each had 1). When this was pointed out before there was any betting she simply dealt 1 more card to each of them. A couple of us questioned as to, shouldn't this be a misdeal? She insisted that they are instructed to just give out 2 more cards as she did. I wanted to ask for the floor but didn't really want to cause a scene. A couple of the other regulars at the table said that this is pretty normal around here. I can't recall ever seeing anything like this at any of the casinos I have played at in either Vegas or AC and I know I have seen misdeals for different reasons, ie card exposed within 1st 2 cards dealt, etc.
No, the two cards were still in the dealer's hand so it was clearly identifiable and immediately given back to the player who forgot to protect his cards. The TD did not go through the muck, but simply confirmed that the player got back his original cards. The TD correctly considered the best interest of the game and fairness as the top priority in the decision-making process, and ruled that the clearly identifiable hand was live.
And you think it is in the best interest of the game for a player to WHISPER his cards to the TD ("I had Aces..sshhhh...") and then for the TD to take cards OUT OF THE MUCK (what if he grabs the wrong cards? or the player lied?) and declare them LIVE?
Comments
(seriously, I think that point belongs in the other thread Jeff. I had a question, I got it answered. I'd argue that your re-post tops my Q on the mindless scale)
In Windsor for Situation #1, the players hand would have been automatically mucked, however since nobody had yet to call his ''all-in'' wager, ONLY the amount of the BB would have been forfeited to the pot. I cant see this player losing his entire stack when his wager has yet to be called. We cant assume that the SB or BB would have or wouldnt have called the wager.
For Situation #2, since the players hand WAS protected and the dealer grabbed cards by mistake AND the cards were CLEARY identifiable by both dealer and TD, his cards would be returned and game would resume as normal. If players cards were not protected, then its on the player and hand is mucked.
I disagree with 13 Cards here that the players hand should be mucked even though they WERE protected. What ''IF'' the dealer is in collusion with Player B and mucks Player A's cards even though they were protected. It wasnt Player A's fault the dealer made an error and he shouldnt be penalized for it.
My question was not answered... How were the cards protected? I have yet to be involved with a situation (as a player or supervisor) where a player's protected cards were mucked by a dealer. I do not know any dealer that will take cards out of a player's hand or take cards that have a card protector/chip on them. I find it very curious that the OP said the cards were protected and yet the dealer managed to muck them. If we can have these details cleared up, I can better give you my final ruling....
- A hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game.
- Rule #1: Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.
TDA Rule #28.
Unprotected Hands- If a dealer kills an unprotected hand the player will have no redress and will not be entitled to a refund of bets. However, if a player had raised and the raise had not yet been called, the raise will be returned to the player.
and of course,
All players are 100% responsible for protecting their own cards.
So...
Player did NOT protect the cards.
The dealer killed an unprotected hand.
The cards were in the muck.
And you think it is in the best interest of the game for a player to WHISPER his cards to the TD ("I had Aces..sshhhh...") and then for the TD to take cards OUT OF THE MUCK (what if he grabs the wrong cards? or the player lied?) and declare them LIVE? WOW.....