Seneca
I went to seneca last night (saturday night) at 10pm.. the following games were running:
2/4 limit (2 tables)
3/6 limit INTEREST LIST
1/2 NL (about 8 tables)
2/5 NL (1 table)
5/10 NL (1 table)
Looks like Brantford and GBH are probably the last bastions of limit poker.
2/4 limit (2 tables)
3/6 limit INTEREST LIST
1/2 NL (about 8 tables)
2/5 NL (1 table)
5/10 NL (1 table)
Looks like Brantford and GBH are probably the last bastions of limit poker.
Comments
I enjoy playing limit more so than no limit in a casino. Might be a self assurance thing, but I feel much more comfortable at it, and still manage to grind out a nice profit when I do.
naw mean?
{Auntie Kristy says: don't post on pain killers and stay in school kids}
I find that every donkey in the world thinks they no how to play no-limit and the game becomes a sausage fest. (Players are always trying to show off whose is bigger.) Only aggression no skill.
I was actually really suprised to hear a statement as strong as 'only aggression and no skill'
I'd argue the opposite as a detriment to limit. A bunch of pussy check/callers who've no actual idea where they stand in the pot..but call down on the chance that they might be good. It feels like hold'em for people with no conviction, and a tenuous grasp on the game
At very least..I'm fairly certain that they hand out La Senza discount cards at limit tables.
I'm sure that gets better as you move up the ranks. But I still think limit is like playing Monopoly without houses and hotels.
I refer you to my earlier 'naw mean'
FWIW, sausagesfests are great, you sit back, relax while you wait for a monster...and then let them pay you off.
And exactly what part of your statement makes you think this isn't a profitable game to play??
Limit is NOT No limit, no argument there. It requires a different mind set to play a good limit round. Poker doesn't have to be all aggression all the time to make it profitable.
And when did they start handing out LaSenza coupons at limit tables? Damn I miss all the good comps.
I see so many No-Limit games where people try and get their money all-in pre-flop with nothing more then A-Q Off, or push all-in with a shitty draw (sucker end of the straight) only to get there, now tell me where the skill is there.
I find a lot of people in No-Limit games have no idea how to play after the flop so they try to get their money as when they think they are ahead or a coin-flip and hope to be good on the end.
Seriously a standard 1-2 NL pre-flop raise it $8-$15 when it should be in the $6-$10 range.
I was playing 1-2 NL when the follow action occurred, raise UTG to $7, re-raise on the button to $24, re-re-rasie by the BB to $100. UTG Folds, button Folds (while showing pocket 4's) where is the skill there?
And I don't see how limit can compare to no limit for profitability..maybe I'm wrong here..but I doubt it.
EDIT: what they had when they shoved on you might be irrelevant, if they were right that you *shouldn't* call ...more info is needed before that statement becomes a negative to your opponent, I think.
Well I agree with you there, the donkey to human ratio is in the skilled players favor, however one bad beat at a NL game can wipe that profit out in a single hand.
Neat idea for comparison...
What if you start from a bankroll perspective:
For Limit you need 300 BB so $4000ish you are rolled for 6-12 (actually $3600 for you nits)
For NL 20 Buy-ins so $4K is rolled for $200NL ($1-$2)
Expectation per 100 hands in limit is lower obv but if you said 3pt/bb per 100 is solid for limit then you win $36/ 100 hands.
If you were 6pt/bb per 100 in the $200NL $4 X 6 = $24
From this angle limit is more profitable by 33%
PS - 6pt/bb at $200 NL would be very solid!!
Is 3pt/bb a fair comparison PAGING ALL POO FLINGERS for input!!
Why don't all the NL Hold'em action junkies play PLO?
More cards = more action
No Limit is an action junkie game. It can be VERY profitable indeed. But from a +ev aspect, Limit is a much more 'comfortable' game to gamble on IMHO.
Wow, that sounds super skillful. I prefer to play 4 streets rather than 1.
Variance in No-Limit is what shakes many a good player. I would say that there is just much oppertunity to make limit profitable. Two different games but both have their advantages. Comparing the two is silly why does anyone care. Pick a game and find ways to make profit.
GL and GG.
I disagree with Kristy about being patient though - and I'm a fairly patient/tight player. The problem is that in a less aggressive game, you won't get paid off enough when you get the big hands. In the more loose/aggressive game, you will get beat often enough that you're not coming that far ahead.
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, but I'll post the rest anyway
The numbers don't account for the variance. FL is mostly constant - and you keep moving upward (assuming some skill). NL is far more of a variance game, and a couple bad sessions can hurt your bankroll a lot more, but your wins are bigger. Also, FL is more of an odds/math game, while NL is more of a reading game. I don't think you can really say one game is more or less skillful - they're different (as everyones stated). However, what I think has been missed, is that we as players are different. Some of us are better at calculating and some at reading their opponents. Some of us are better equipped emotionally to handle the swings of NL, while others will tilt with some of the horrendous (and costly) beats. The ability to stay focused on the game and the players around you may be easier with one form versus another.
This brings me to what I consider to be the key goals for any good poker player. First, as a condition to my analysis, I assume that we care more about winning $$$ than BB, but that we will stay within a safe bankroll strategy to do so. For goals, you want to improve so you are as skillful as possible in every possible game. This means that your table selection is totally based on which game is good and which isn't, regardless of which form of poker is being played. However, most of us simply aren't as good at all games. So to me this means the intermediate goal is better self-awareness. We need to objectively determine where our skill lies, and this is a combination of game selection and table selection.
As an example (just made-up numbers though
FL tight - 4 PTBB/100
FL aggro - 1 PTBB/100
NL tight - 8 PTBB/100
NL aggro - 8 PTBB/100
If these numbers are realistic (and you can determine that using the rule of always tracking your results), it makes game selection easy.
Assume I have a $10k roll. This would allow me to play up to 15/30 FL or 5/5 NL. If the games are 1/2 loose NL, 5/5 tight NL, 5/10 tight FL, and 15/30 aggro FL, which game should I play? Easy - just figure out your expectation in $$$ (not BB/100). They are $32/100, $80/100, $40/100, and $30/100.
The interesting thing here is that my stats are far better in FL tight. Using our earlier calculation, 4 PTBB/100 is around 13 PTBB/100 in NL, so my example of 8 is a serious downgrade. However, based on the games being spread in my imaginary casino, it's better to play the game I am less skilled at because I'll make more money. Who cares what my stats are?
Bottom line, I don't believe any game (and I'd extend this past our FL/NL discussions into Stud, etc.) is necessarily more or less skillful, and even if they were, it doesn't matter. The key is to figure out your own EV for a specific game/opponents, and then make an objective decision from there. Playing your best game or the more skillful game isn't always the right decision. Note that all this evaluation means nothing if you're just looking for a good time - then just play what you like
I know this is pretty basic, so I'm probably wasting most peoples time with this post. But this wasn't totally apparent to me when I started, and most of the info out there seems to dance around it rather than present a concise example, so hopefully this helps a few people.
EDIT: and 2BB/100 is on the higher end of the spectrum.
I finally got some chat! (and I thought xxCindyxx was the way to revive this)
I was referring solely to the scenario as outlined by Chris Elliot..uber-aggressive.
Limit is much more stable for good players, NL is unstable even for top pros. A good Limit player will consistantly make good $, a top NL pro may go broke. There are edges to all poker forms.
I think you were taking my statement about being patient to apply to all games instead of specifically the one Chris mentioned.
My limit sample size is tragically flawed..but I don't think it is unfair to argue so far it seems the action junkies (Defining an 'action junkie' as someone who plays when all the evidence to a specific hand is that they should not) are more likely to be found at the smaller limit tables. I've never seen so many players to flop, so consistently before... I've been consistently surprised by the absurd hands shown down by my opponents.
My experience thus far is that Limit seems to be dominated by a bunch of pussy check-callers who just can't make informed decisions on when to play. (as before, I'm sure most of you forumers are exempt from this statement)
I suppose in time I may learn I'm wrong about limit..but I sincerely do not believe I am.
It's true. I'm an action junkie. I much prefer limit to nl because I am seeing far more flops. nl is 10% action and 90% boredom. I can't stand nl ring. It is so boring.
AFA your second statement, I think my post-flop skills in nl tournaments is that much higher because of all the practise I get playing limit ring. People are exactly right when they say BAD nl players just hammer away hoping they are ahead and have no post-flop skills what-so-ever. Rarely do you get to practise your post-flop skills in nl ring. AFA check/call down players, you are just describing BAD limit players, which is what makes the game so profitable for GOOD limit players. Throwing away another BB just to see if you are good is what kills your profitability. If you can't save that BB when you are behind, you will just be another losing limit poker player.
Texas Hold'em $25-$50 (Real Money), #703,278,160Table Kolding, 10 Aug 2007 10:25 PM ET
Seat 1: longbigdick3 ($1,328.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Ozzthor ($2,625.30 in chips)
Seat 3: shinydevice ($2,646.15 in chips)
Seat 4: bonusplay ($1,154.60 in chips)
Seat 5: polak62 ($613 in chips)
Seat 6: ftghdd ($3,672 in chips)
Seat 7: maollila ($2,047 in chips)
Seat 10: cdnmoose06 ($1,962.50 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
ftghdd posts blind ($12.50), maollila posts blind ($25).
PRE-FLOP
cdnmoose06 bets $50, longbigdick3 folds, Ozzthor folds, shinydevice folds, bonusplay calls $50, polak62 folds, ftghdd folds, maollila folds.
FLOP [board cards 8D,JH,8C ]
cdnmoose06 bets $25, bonusplay bets $50, cdnmoose06 calls $25.
TURN [board cards 8D,JH,8C,QC ]
cdnmoose06 checks, bonusplay bets $50, cdnmoose06 bets $100, bonusplay calls $50.
RIVER [board cards 8D,JH,8C,QC,KS ]
cdnmoose06 bets $50, bonusplay calls $50.
SHOWDOWN
cdnmoose06 shows [ 9D,10D ]
bonusplay mucks cards [ 7S,7D ]
cdnmoose06 wins $534.50.
Dealer: polak62
Pot: $537.50, (including rake: $3)
longbigdick3, loses $0
Ozzthor, loses $0
shinydevice, loses $0
bonusplay, loses $250
polak62, loses $0
ftghdd, loses $12.50
maollila, loses $25
cdnmoose06, bets $250, collects $534.50, net $284.50
How NOT to play jacks:
Texas Hold'em $25-$50 (Real Money), #703,279,406Table Kolding, 10 Aug 2007 10:26 PM ET
Seat 2: Ozzthor ($2,625.30 in chips)
Seat 3: shinydevice ($2,646.15 in chips)
Seat 4: bonusplay ($904.60 in chips)
Seat 5: polak62 ($613 in chips)
Seat 6: ftghdd ($3,659.50 in chips)
Seat 7: maollila ($2,022 in chips)
Seat 10: cdnmoose06 ($2,247 in chips)
maollila posts blind ($12.50), cdnmoose06 posts blind ($25).
PRE-FLOP
longbigdick3 folds, Ozzthor folds, shinydevice folds, bonusplay calls $25, polak62 folds, ftghdd folds, maollila folds, cdnmoose06 checks.
FLOP [board cards 6C,9C,8S ]
cdnmoose06 bets $25, bonusplay bets $50, cdnmoose06 calls $25.
TURN [board cards 6C,9C,8S,5D ]
cdnmoose06 bets $50, bonusplay bets $100, cdnmoose06 bets $100, bonusplay calls $50.
RIVER [board cards 6C,9C,8S,5D,5H ]
cdnmoose06 bets $50, bonusplay calls $50.
SHOWDOWN
cdnmoose06 shows [ 7H,JC ]
bonusplay mucks cards [ JD,JS ]
cdnmoose06 wins $559.50.
Dealer: ftghdd
Pot: $562.50, (including rake: $3)
longbigdick3, loses $0
Ozzthor, loses $0
shinydevice, loses $0
bonusplay, loses $275
polak62, loses $0
ftghdd, loses $0
maollila, loses $12.50
cdnmoose06, bets $275, collects $559.50, net $284.50
Texas Hold'em $25-$50 (Real Money), #703,318,945Table Kolding, 10 Aug 2007 10:50 PM ET
Seat 1: longbigdick3 ($1,085 in chips)
Seat 2: Ozzthor ($2,516.30 in chips)
Seat 3: shinydevice ($2,465.15 in chips)
Seat 5: polak62 ($632.50 in chips)
Seat 6: ftghdd ($3,219 in chips)
Seat 10: cdnmoose06 ($2,319 in chips)
ANTES/BLINDS
cdnmoose06 posts blind ($12.50), longbigdick3 posts blind ($25).
PRE-FLOP
Ozzthor calls $25, shinydevice bets $50, polak62 folds, ftghdd folds, cdnmoose06 bets $62.50, longbigdick3 folds, Ozzthor calls $50, shinydevice bets $50, cdnmoose06 calls $25, Ozzthor calls $25.
FLOP [board cards 2C,7H,5H ]
cdnmoose06 checks, Ozzthor checks, shinydevice bets $25, cdnmoose06 calls $25, Ozzthor folds.
TURN [board cards 2C,7H,5H,4H ]
cdnmoose06 checks, shinydevice bets $50, cdnmoose06 bets $100, shinydevice calls $50.
RIVER [board cards 2C,7H,5H,4H,6S ]
cdnmoose06 bets $50, shinydevice calls $50.
SHOWDOWN
cdnmoose06 shows [ AC,AS ]
shinydevice mucks cards [ AD,KC ]
cdnmoose06 wins $672.
Dealer: ftghdd
Pot: $675, (including rake: $3)
longbigdick3, loses $25
Ozzthor, loses $100
shinydevice, loses $275
polak62, loses $0
ftghdd, loses $0
cdnmoose06, bets $275, collects $672, net $397