I have had $700 taxed from me in 2006, but I have yet to claim it. I would like to know how much (percentage or fixed fee) do they charge for their service/
We used refund management to get some taxes taken from some purse money a horse that raced in Detroit in several stakes races. I believe they took 30% of what they recovered. It was several years ago. They handled it quicky and professionally.
We used refund management to get some taxes taken from some purse money a horse that raced in Detroit in several stakes races. I believe they took 30% of what they recovered. It was several years ago. They handled it quicky and professionally.
May I ask how big of a purse it was, if you don't wish to share the definitive answer (close to 700? over 700, no comment etc)?
If they were to take 30% of the $700, I wouldn't mind.
Dude I answered this before many times. If you file your US taxes, you can get the tax withholding reduced from 30% to 15% on poker income. It is the same tax treaty that permits US dividend tax withholding to be reduced automatically by your broker, from 30% to 15%. You can not get it all back. To get it all back, the gambling income must come from slot machines and a few other simple games. It does not apply to poker.
Filling out your US taxes is a nightmare. It will take many hours just to read through all the forms. It is not worth your time unless that 15% represents a good chunk of money.
If you go to one of those tax refund places, it would basically be the same as going to one of those ticket defender places, where if they get you off, they will take a nice chunk of what you would have paid as their fee. In any event remember, they still will only be able to reduce your tax withholding from 30% to 15%.
Rob, I don't think your info is correct or current. Poker and slot machines are the same to the US govt... And where did you get that 15 vs 30 % info? You do have to show some cost/loses however to get some of your 30% back... True it wouldn't be worth it for only a few hundred..
Dude if you are going to trash my post at least do the courtesy of backing it up with some facts.
One interesting thing for 2007 is that it looks like the withholding rate has dropped to 28%, so the people who cashed last w/e at Seneca got screwed for an extra 2%.
I'm not going to bother looking up the rest because obv. I am right. The maximum tax withholding by Cdn/US Tax Treaty on US based source income is 15%. If you are paying more Compuease, then your broker is screwing you.
Income tax is withheld at a flat 25% rate from certain kinds of gambling winnings.
Gambling winnings of more than $5,000 from the following sources are subject to income tax withholding.
Any sweepstakes, wagering pool, or lottery.
Any other wager if the proceeds are at least 300 times the amount of the bet.
It does not matter whether your winnings are paid in cash, in property, or as an annuity. Winnings not paid in cash are taken into account at their fair market value. Exception.Gambling winnings from bingo, keno, and slot machines are generally not subject to income tax withholding. However, you may need to provide the payer with a social security number to avoid withholding. See Backup withholding on gambling winnings, on this page. If you receive gambling winnings not subject to withholding, you may need to pay estimated tax. See chapter 2.
Backup withholding on gambling winnings.If you have any kind of gambling winnings and do not give the payer your social security number, the payer may have to withhold income tax at a flat 28% rate. This rule also applies to winnings of at least $1,200 from bingo or slot machines or $1,500 from keno, and to certain other gambling winnings of at least $600.
Tax at a 30% (or lower treaty) rate applies to certain items of income or gains from U.S. sources but only if the items are not effectively connected with your U.S. trade or business.
Fixed or Determinable Income
The 30% (or lower treaty) rate applies to the gross amount of U.S. source fixed or determinable annual or periodic gains, profits, or income.
Income is fixed when it is paid in amounts known ahead of time. Income is determinable whenever there is a basis for figuring the amount to be paid. Income can be periodic if it is paid from time to time. It does not have to be paid annually or at regular intervals. Income can be determinable or periodic even if the length of time during which the payments are made is increased or decreased.
Items specifically included as fixed or determinable income are interest (other than original issue discount), dividends, rents, premiums, annuities, salaries, wages, and other compensation. A substitute dividend or interest payment received under a securities lending transaction or a sale-repurchase transaction is treated the same as the amounts received on the transferred security. Other items of income, such as royalties, also may be subject to the 30% tax.
The United States has tax treaties with a number of foreign countries. Under these treaties, residents (not necessarily citizens) of foreign countries are taxed at a reduced rate, or are exempt from U.S. taxes on certain items of income they receive from sources within the United States. These reduced rates and exemptions vary among countries and specific items of income. Under these same treaties, residents or citizens of the United States are taxed at a reduced rate, or are exempt from foreign taxes, on certain items of income they receive from sources within foreign countries. Most income tax treaties contain what is known as a "saving clause" which prevents a citizen or resident of the Untied States from using the provisions of a tax treaty in order to avoid taxation of U.S. source income.
UNITED STATES - CANADA INCOME TAX CONVENTION Convention Signed at Washington, D.C. on September 26,1980; Protocol Signed at Ottawa June 14, 1983; Protocol Signed at Washington, D.C., March 28,1984; Ratification Advised by the Senate of the United States of America on June 28, 1984; Entered into Force August 16, 1984.
GENERAL EFFECTIVE DATE UNDER ARTICLE XXX: 1 JANUARY 1985
THE PRESIDENT, The White House.
THE PRESIDENT: I have the honor to submit to you, with a view to its transmission to the Senate
for advice and consent to ratification, a Convention between the United States of America and Canada
with respect to Taxes on Income and Capital (the Convention), signed at Washington on September 26,
1980, and a related exchange of notes signed on the same day.
The existing income tax convention with Canada, which was signed in 1942 and amended for
supplementary conventions in 1950, 1956 and 1966, is the second oldest United States tax convention
in force. The new Convention revises the existing convention by accommodating changes in United
States and Canadian law, with particular reference to Canada's 1971 tax reform, as well as changes in
treaty policy.
I'm not going to post the rest of the treaty, but the gist is, as I said, the max. tax withholding by treaty is 15% but you have to clain your treaty rights on your own. This is done for ongoing income like US dividends by filling in a simple form with your broker. For one off events like poker winnings you will have to file your taxes in order to claim your treaty rights and receive a refund. Interestingly, it is the second oldest US tax treaty, dating back to 1942, which might even be older than you.
Thank you for inquiring about our service. We can definitely assit you with recovering the taxes deducted from your win at the WSOP last year. We just returned from this years tournament and assisting the Canadians there with their tax recovery, many of whom cashed close to the end.
We charge 25 % of the amount recovered payable only once recover the funds. Well be able to recover just about all of the total amount deducted from your win.
Please feel free to give us a call at our toll free number 18882725559 and we can explain the process to you and get a package sent out to you.
Thank you,
Brooke - RMS
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
Moose: the sky is blue
Jeff: no it isn't
Moose: WTF?
Jeff: It's actually clear, the atmospheric absorption makes it "appear" blue, ie Rayleigh scattering.
These words are just to make the message long enuff...
Actually it makes my point exactly. You want to dispute a member's post, fine go ahead. But don't just say I disagree without something to back it up. That's not discussion. That is just verbal diarrhea that serves no purpose.
Actually it makes my point exactly. You want to dispute a member's post, fine go ahead. But don't just say I disagree without something to back it up. That's not discussion. That is just verbal diarrhea that serves no purpose.
Thank you for inquiring about our service. We can definitely assit you with recovering the taxes deducted from your win at the WSOP last year. We just returned from this years tournament and assisting the Canadians there with their tax recovery, many of whom cashed close to the end.
We charge 25 % of the amount recovered payable only once recover the funds. Well be able to recover just about all of the total amount deducted from your win.
Please feel free to give us a call at our toll free number 18882725559 and we can explain the process to you and get a package sent out to you.
Thank you,
Brooke - RMS
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
UPDATE: 4 months later, all they charged me was a $50 fee and I got all 30% recovered from them.
This is with Refund Management Service (check above to make sure, but thats where I went).
UPDATE: 4 months later, all they charged me was a $50 fee and I got all 30% recovered from them.
This is with Refund Management Service (check above to make sure, but thats where I went).
So from your $700 withheld, you got back $650? If they say they'll charge 25%, seems odd that they didn't charge you $175. I guess maybe they want people to go back to them in the future. Four months is pretty long though.
I guess I may go with them if there's no easier or cheaper alternative and hope I'm only charged with the $50 fee...
I can't seem to get to the last page of the thread (Page not found)
Anyhow, an update to the situation. I received my 30% back from the IRS. I had prepaid my $50 to RMS before and thought they told me 25% would be deducted. What happened was the IRS usually sends them the funds first and then they send you the remaining 75% of the funds. So instead I was contacted by them and asked to send them a cheque for the 25% that they did not receive in service fees. I sent them the cheque within a month and have not heard from them since.
I'm not sure if LV differs from NY, but the Turning Stones Casino TD informed me that they will only take 30% tax off any tournament profit, while in LV during 2006 WSOP it was taken off my cash.
I wonder how ppl can try to get as full a return as possible if they have a large score. ie 25K+ in taxes.
I and most of the name Canadian pros it seems use RMS as well. They take 10% as their fee but they get the job done well (at least from my own experience last year and all accounts I've heard).
According to several players I know who paid for a refund management service, you can only get a refund on the part that you can offset with gambling losses. For example, WSOP sixth place finisher Darus Suharto was withheld 30% or U$725,569 of the U$2,418,562 he won. If the only proof of gambling loss for the non-professional is his receipt for the U$10,000 main event, then my understanding is he can only get the U$10,000 back. I don't know if he can get any of the remaining ~U$700K tax back by claiming future gambling losses with the IRS or by claiming a credit on his Canadian tax return every year.
Was there any tax withholding at EPT London, PCA Bahamas, EPT Monte Carlo, EPT Germany, etc? Is there an additional state tax withholding in California (WPT LA Poker Classic)? Which other countries besides Canada have no tax penalties or withholding for poker tournaments? My friends are about to start a rake-free league for a $10K seat with shares, but it looks like we should choose a tax-free tournament instead of the WSOP Main Event or any US tournament where 30% of winnings would be withheld.
I and most of the name Canadian pros it seems use RMS as well. They take 10% as their fee but they get the job done well (at least from my own experience last year and all accounts I've heard).
I'm fairly sure the EPT are not taxed at all and for the PCA, Stars will transfer all funds into your PS Account if you wish to avoid the taxes as well.
I'm sure for a pro like Mike, that if needed he would be able to show enough tourney receipts from the US to get most of the taxes back. And when I did mine, I didn't need to send them anything at all just documents of ID and the slip I got from the RIO.
As for the LAPC, I posted a question to Matt Savage on another forum and there is a 30% witholding tax, but I can't remember if he said it was on 5K Net profit or not.
The main question is how much do you need to submit to get a service break from 25% to 10%. Save up a bunch of slips for that! And if its only 10%, its like a 3% tax overall meaning the WSOP ME will still have great value for the tourney grinder!
According to several players I know who paid for a refund management service, you can only get a refund on the part that you can offset with gambling losses. For example, WSOP sixth place finisher Darus Suharto was withheld 30% or U$725,569 of the U$2,418,562 he won. If the only proof of gambling loss for the non-professional is his receipt for the U$10,000 main event, then my understanding is he can only get the U$10,000 back. I don't know if he can get any of the remaining ~U$700K tax back by claiming future gambling losses with the IRS or by claiming a credit on his Canadian tax return every year.
Was there any tax withholding at EPT London, PCA Bahamas, EPT Monte Carlo, EPT Germany, etc? Is there an additional state tax withholding in California (WPT LA Poker Classic)? Which other countries besides Canada have no tax penalties or withholding for poker tournaments? My friends are about to start a rake-free league for a $10K seat with shares, but it looks like we should choose a tax-free tournament instead of the WSOP Main Event or any US tournament where 30% of winnings would be withheld.
Hey Blondefish
You're essentially correct; I've posted this info in a few other threads. You can only (legally) write off fees/losses/expenses. That's it. In your example above, in fact, you would only get $3,000 back from your $10,000 buy-in, as your $2,418,562 win would be reduced by $10,000, leaving a profit of $2,408,562, which would be taxed at $722,569. I don't believe (not positive on this) you can use losses from previous years, or re-file, if you have losses in future years, but if you are a non-professional it wouldn't matter much anyway. As for a credit on your Canadian tax return - that ain't gonna happen.
Comments
Anyone used one of theses services before, are they legit?
http://www.americantaxrefund.com/
http://www.casinotaxrebate.com/?gclid=CObKioWMzY0CFQlQWAod-VB0MQ
http://www.casinorefund.ca/
http://www.ustaxrecovery.com/?gclid=CInT6s6MzY0CFR6AWAod_BsFLQ
And some more interesting info..
http://www.kvdb.com/TAXFAX/GamblingLosses.pdf
www.refundmanagement.com
and I am pretty sure they are located in Toronto, butI have never used them.
I have had $700 taxed from me in 2006, but I have yet to claim it. I would like to know how much (percentage or fixed fee) do they charge for their service/
Thanks
May I ask how big of a purse it was, if you don't wish to share the definitive answer (close to 700? over 700, no comment etc)?
If they were to take 30% of the $700, I wouldn't mind.
THANKS
Filling out your US taxes is a nightmare. It will take many hours just to read through all the forms. It is not worth your time unless that 15% represents a good chunk of money.
If you go to one of those tax refund places, it would basically be the same as going to one of those ticket defender places, where if they get you off, they will take a nice chunk of what you would have paid as their fee. In any event remember, they still will only be able to reduce your tax withholding from 30% to 15%.
One interesting thing for 2007 is that it looks like the withholding rate has dropped to 28%, so the people who cashed last w/e at Seneca got screwed for an extra 2%.
I'm not going to bother looking up the rest because obv. I am right. The maximum tax withholding by Cdn/US Tax Treaty on US based source income is 15%. If you are paying more Compuease, then your broker is screwing you.
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p505/ch01.html#d0e3812
Gambling Winnings
Income tax is withheld at a flat 25% rate from certain kinds of gambling winnings.
Gambling winnings of more than $5,000 from the following sources are subject to income tax withholding.
- Any sweepstakes, wagering pool, or lottery.
- Any other wager if the proceeds are at least 300 times the amount of the bet.
It does not matter whether your winnings are paid in cash, in property, or as an annuity. Winnings not paid in cash are taken into account at their fair market value.Exception. Gambling winnings from bingo, keno, and slot machines are generally not subject to income tax withholding. However, you may need to provide the payer with a social security number to avoid withholding. See Backup withholding on gambling winnings, on this page. If you receive gambling winnings not subject to withholding, you may need to pay estimated tax. See chapter 2.
Backup withholding on gambling winnings. If you have any kind of gambling winnings and do not give the payer your social security number, the payer may have to withhold income tax at a flat 28% rate. This rule also applies to winnings of at least $1,200 from bingo or slot machines or $1,500 from keno, and to certain other gambling winnings of at least $600.
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p519/ch04.html#d0e3857
4. How Income of Aliens Is Taxed
The 30% Tax
Tax at a 30% (or lower treaty) rate applies to certain items of income or gains from U.S. sources but only if the items are not effectively connected with your U.S. trade or business.
Fixed or Determinable Income
The 30% (or lower treaty) rate applies to the gross amount of U.S. source fixed or determinable annual or periodic gains, profits, or income.
Income is fixed when it is paid in amounts known ahead of time. Income is determinable whenever there is a basis for figuring the amount to be paid. Income can be periodic if it is paid from time to time. It does not have to be paid annually or at regular intervals. Income can be determinable or periodic even if the length of time during which the payments are made is increased or decreased.
Items specifically included as fixed or determinable income are interest (other than original issue discount), dividends, rents, premiums, annuities, salaries, wages, and other compensation. A substitute dividend or interest payment received under a securities lending transaction or a sale-repurchase transaction is treated the same as the amounts received on the transferred security. Other items of income, such as royalties, also may be subject to the 30% tax.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/international/article/0,,id=96739,00.html
United States Income Tax Treaties - A to Z
The United States has tax treaties with a number of foreign countries. Under these treaties, residents (not necessarily citizens) of foreign countries are taxed at a reduced rate, or are exempt from U.S. taxes on certain items of income they receive from sources within the United States. These reduced rates and exemptions vary among countries and specific items of income. Under these same treaties, residents or citizens of the United States are taxed at a reduced rate, or are exempt from foreign taxes, on certain items of income they receive from sources within foreign countries. Most income tax treaties contain what is known as a "saving clause" which prevents a citizen or resident of the Untied States from using the provisions of a tax treaty in order to avoid taxation of U.S. source income.
Convention Signed at Washington, D.C. on September 26,1980;
Protocol Signed at Ottawa June 14, 1983;
Protocol Signed at Washington, D.C., March 28,1984;
Ratification Advised by the Senate of the United States of America on June 28, 1984;
Entered into Force August 16, 1984.
The White House.
THE PRESIDENT: I have the honor to submit to you, with a view to its transmission to the Senate
for advice and consent to ratification, a Convention between the United States of America and Canada
with respect to Taxes on Income and Capital (the Convention), signed at Washington on September 26,
1980, and a related exchange of notes signed on the same day.
The existing income tax convention with Canada, which was signed in 1942 and amended for
supplementary conventions in 1950, 1956 and 1966, is the second oldest United States tax convention
in force. The new Convention revises the existing convention by accommodating changes in United
States and Canadian law, with particular reference to Canada's 1971 tax reform, as well as changes in
I'm not going to post the rest of the treaty, but the gist is, as I said, the max. tax withholding by treaty is 15% but you have to clain your treaty rights on your own. This is done for ongoing income like US dividends by filling in a simple form with your broker. For one off events like poker winnings you will have to file your taxes in order to claim your treaty rights and receive a refund. Interestingly, it is the second oldest US tax treaty, dating back to 1942, which might even be older than you.
Question: If I got money withheld in 2006, can I file to get it back in say 2009? Or am I out of luck?
So long as the losses that are claimed are in the same year.
ie You cannot claim 2007 and 2008 losses against 2009 wins
Thanks
AJ..
Please ban Moose for plain ol arrogance and chicanery... Obviously confusing facts with what actually happens.
Edited to add a sarcasm warning, just in case he pops a gasket.
Jeff: no it isn't
Me: WTF?
Good God...If I started to do THAT...who would be left?
These words are just to make the message long enuff...
/g2
/g2
UPDATE: 4 months later, all they charged me was a $50 fee and I got all 30% recovered from them.
This is with Refund Management Service (check above to make sure, but thats where I went).
So from your $700 withheld, you got back $650? If they say they'll charge 25%, seems odd that they didn't charge you $175. I guess maybe they want people to go back to them in the future. Four months is pretty long though.
I guess I may go with them if there's no easier or cheaper alternative and hope I'm only charged with the $50 fee...
I got the full check in the mail 4 months later. Its been sitting inside my desk for 1 yr, so +600 works for me.
Anyhow, an update to the situation. I received my 30% back from the IRS. I had prepaid my $50 to RMS before and thought they told me 25% would be deducted. What happened was the IRS usually sends them the funds first and then they send you the remaining 75% of the funds. So instead I was contacted by them and asked to send them a cheque for the 25% that they did not receive in service fees. I sent them the cheque within a month and have not heard from them since.
I'm not sure if LV differs from NY, but the Turning Stones Casino TD informed me that they will only take 30% tax off any tournament profit, while in LV during 2006 WSOP it was taken off my cash.
I wonder how ppl can try to get as full a return as possible if they have a large score. ie 25K+ in taxes.
Was there any tax withholding at EPT London, PCA Bahamas, EPT Monte Carlo, EPT Germany, etc? Is there an additional state tax withholding in California (WPT LA Poker Classic)? Which other countries besides Canada have no tax penalties or withholding for poker tournaments? My friends are about to start a rake-free league for a $10K seat with shares, but it looks like we should choose a tax-free tournament instead of the WSOP Main Event or any US tournament where 30% of winnings would be withheld.
I'm sure for a pro like Mike, that if needed he would be able to show enough tourney receipts from the US to get most of the taxes back. And when I did mine, I didn't need to send them anything at all just documents of ID and the slip I got from the RIO.
As for the LAPC, I posted a question to Matt Savage on another forum and there is a 30% witholding tax, but I can't remember if he said it was on 5K Net profit or not.
The main question is how much do you need to submit to get a service break from 25% to 10%. Save up a bunch of slips for that! And if its only 10%, its like a 3% tax overall meaning the WSOP ME will still have great value for the tourney grinder!
Hey Blondefish
You're essentially correct; I've posted this info in a few other threads. You can only (legally) write off fees/losses/expenses. That's it. In your example above, in fact, you would only get $3,000 back from your $10,000 buy-in, as your $2,418,562 win would be reduced by $10,000, leaving a profit of $2,408,562, which would be taxed at $722,569. I don't believe (not positive on this) you can use losses from previous years, or re-file, if you have losses in future years, but if you are a non-professional it wouldn't matter much anyway. As for a credit on your Canadian tax return - that ain't gonna happen.